Iraq War, please state facts with references

Rotty261

Rotty261

Active member
I know the last topic of the war got pretty heated with everyone wanting to give their opinions, which is a good way to express your feelings. I would like to see and hear why people feel the way they do. Everyone has seen or heard something that made them feel the way they do. I would like to see topics that cause you to feel this way and a reference where you got the information. I will start....

Saddam has been accused of using chemical weapons to kill thousands of his own people to include children. He has also been accused of genocide towards his own people. He has also been accused of seizing children from families until the males in the households would fight for his regime.

Sources:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/14/sprj.nirq.saddam.future/

http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/2003/Oct/09-714163.html
 
whosewar2000

Why dont you point him in the right direction instead of having a go at him???????????????
 
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:roll: :roll: :roll:
can you do better job by using latest resource? I can use 1983 resource convincing you that Samdam is "good guy" for America.
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I am pretty sure that we are not there only because of what he has done recently, there have been many things that caused us to be in Iraq to remove him from power.

Do you remember what he did to Kuwait in the early 1990's? I do and I have also been there (after the fact) I have personally spoke to a couple of individuals that were serving in the Kuwaiti military during the invasion and were held captive for seven years by Saddam and his regime. I heard many of the horrible things that were done to these two men, even if only half of what they told me was true, they were treated worse than alot of the Vietnam era POW's.

See if this one is "good enough for you"

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31896
 
The Iraq war, or the second gulf war. It was based on a policy of prevention, when in fact we instead got a new theatre in the great war on terror.

It's pivotal purpose was to disarm Saddam's weapons of mass destruction, nuclear, chemical, and biological. The nuclear part of it was based on, what we thought, strong intelligence. CIA, MI6, Russian, Jordan, Egypt, said they were in there. All these repots coming in, they got them, they got them! The rest of the world said we were nuts, but there was more to it, more pieces of the puzzle that made this threat more buyable than just intelligence.....

As for the biological and chemical weapons, we have found some of those, but not what he had. And we know he had them, because he used them on the kurds before, and Iran. They are misssing, and many people suspect they are along a neighboring border, or in a country. Primarily Syria.

Another reason was that Iraq was suspected of harboring terrorist cells, and this has come to be true. Parts of Hezbolla and HAMAS were in baghdad, but more importaintly a direct spawn of Al Queda had a strong presence. It is lead by a man of the name Al Zarqawi.

Zarqawi was in Afganistan for two years, helped train Al Queda members, and actively fought in the war in Afganistan. He was injured, he went through Iran to Iraq, fleeing to Iraq, he knew they would take care of him. And they did. He then built his "army" in Iraq, largely during the time period the US was "dilly daddling" with the UN, this extra time let Zarqawi fill up his ranks. When the US invaded, they went "underground" and fights the US to this day.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/zarqawi.htm

And lastly, the war was also to remove the Baathist regime from power, this was largely based on Saddam's defiance of UN resolutions. And uh, I could mention all the horrible things his regime has done, but do I need to bother?

These are the main reasons for going to war, and now, let me say something about the current situation.

The Bush administration, by all factual accounts, had every right to overthrow the Baathist regime. But was it done correctly? Taking a look at Iraq, it is easy to say no. I think this is somewhat correct, for instance, it seems Donald Rumsfeld didn't have a clue about what would happen in Iraq, it was like a surprise that the insurgencey happened. Considering his poesition, that is a fatal error. They didn't plan well for the aftermath.

So the primary reason we came to Iraq, wasn't fullfilled. But another one was: Terrorism

The great struggle with militant Islam is now taking place in Iraq- but is this a blessing or a curse? Iraq now symbols which way Islam will fall, will it be sucked up by Islamic fanatics? Or will it embrace democracy, and lead Islam into a world of modernization and prosperity?

While America certianly has the power to win a military war, the political war will remain ever so complex. But most importaintly, like the South Vietnamese, it will be solely the Iraqi's decision whether or not we win. They will either fuel the evil, or repel it.

If we win this, it will be an immense victory, if we fail, then....... god help us all.
 
Chocobo_Blitzer said:
The Iraq war, or the second gulf war. It was based on a policy of prevention, when in fact we instead got a new theatre in the great war on terror.
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Would you please stop using "great war on terror"? it always reminds me "holly war for Alla", or "holly war for America"

There is no such thing that war is great. Every war is sad. Especially prevention war is totally a mess. War shall always be defensive. Human being start to killing each other to death once everybody think "I shall kill you if I feel you want to kill me".
 
You going to join the topic or argue over my dramatization? Have you never heard of "the great war" to describe world war one?

You are also confused on the definitions "great" means, how about you educate yourself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=great

So how about you stop hiding behind meaningless technicalities and join in on the topic? Or continue to ruin topics, I'm sure the mods will like that.
 
Chocobo_Blitzer, I support you 100%. Add your post with mine on Saddam's history, and we have one strong argument. The World has removed people from power for doing far less than what Saddam did. Here are a few things that he has done

"During the Iran-Iraq War, Saddam Hussein and his
forces used chemical weapons against Iran. According to official
Iranian sources, which we consider credible, approximately 5,000
Iranians were killed by chemical weapons between 1983 and 1988. The
use of chemical weapons has been a war crime since the 1925 Chemical
Weapons treaty, to which Iraq is a party"

"In mid-March of 1988, Saddam Hussein and his cousin Ali
Hassan alMajid -- the infamous "Chemical Ali" -- ordered the dropping
of chemical weapons on the town of Halabja in northeastern Iraq. This
killed an estimated 5,000 civilians, and is a war crime and a crime
against humanity. Photographic and videotape evidence of this attack
and its aftermath exists."

"Beginning in 1987 and accelerating in early1988, Saddam Hussein ordered the "Anfal" campaign against the IraqiKurdish people. By any measure, this constituted a crime against humanity and a war crime. Chemical Ali has admitted to witnesses that he carried out this campaign "under orders."...Human Rights Watch estimated that between 50,000and 100,000 Kurds were killed. Based on their review of captured Iraqi documents, interviews with hundreds of eyewitnesses, and on-site forensic investigations, they concluded that the Anfal campaign was genocide."

The invasion and occupation of Kuwait

"In March and April of 1991, Saddam Hussein's forces killed somewhere between 30,000 and 60,000 Iraqis, most of them civilians."

"Many groups have documented Saddam Hussein's ongoing campaign against political opponents, including killings, tortures, and -- lately -- rape. As some of you may know, the regime has been using sexual assaults of
women in an effort to intimidate leaders of the Iraqi opposition."

http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm

To think that Saddam would all of a sudden change his ways and become a model citizen of the world is insane. He is an evil man and his removal from power has made the world safer from aggression.
 
I can give you my 2 cents unfortunatly the links I have used is all on swedish or from the swe news. To be honest I think that state terrorism has just changed to be street terrorism. And that this war west can´t won. No one could believe that the U.K would still have troops in Dublin Irland 25 years after they had march in to stop the war there. I also think that we in the west are just to civilized to fight this kind of war. Civilized in that perspective that the west and the middle east has totaly different ways to deal with human life. Well I do not say that west have been any angels.

We all have done our big F.U.B.A.R s so there are no reason to make one side the good guys and the other bad guys. When I read on this post that Saddam Hussein didn´t listen to UN. "What a supprise!" Well he didnt listen to the UN but he didnt have to many fanatics walking on the streets kiddnapping people and cut there heads of either. He did though use so called state terorrism on his own people. Today Iraq is runned by different street gangs with RPKs and RPG and AK47s. They are far from only Iraqis it is an international terror network that are dealing with the war in Iraq. As an Iraqi man shouted on TV.

Why are they shooting at us!? What have we done?. And then he spooked about both terrorists and the US military. I think the whole war is a mess. This is a Reaction, Problem, Soulution that have gone wrong. To change a country as Iraq and other middle east countrys you can`t do as the UN, EU, US with allies have done from the first time. This sanctions against Iraq did buy US with allies a quick victory on the battlefield but the same time the whole Iraq nation was a big mess. No water? No medical? No schools?

Why a man can ask himself. I point at the real war criminals directly and that is the UN. And that goes for every war criminal in that Haag court to. I dont find it to hard to see why people becomes terrorists today. But it is seldom and that I want to tell you, the leaders fault. It is we the west that tries to clean up something that the leaders we have voiting in to power has built up in the first place. It is not the arabs fault that they are fighting for there homes today. It is not the african peoples fault that they are killing eachother. It is this damn UN and EU and WTO and other assholes to be honest that have made this happend.

So the real war criminals are still in power and the small puppets are the ones that get the crimes in there faces. I think this war and every war from the great war to days date is a big F.U.B.A.R cause the leaders that made WW1 stop are the same that built up the grounds for WW2 and after that the UN have done a hell of a work making this world falling appart with there so called programs. I have learend that every game has its own set of rules. But in most of the games both teams have to fall under the same treatment. I find no such rules in this new war.

I find no honor in the way west have treated those countrys in first place that in fact have made them to what they are today. Want to fixe something? Take the UN to Haag and take all the leaders that have made this possible to Haag. Do as they did with Adolf Hitlers right hands. Make them shake of fear in those seats. Make them see what they have done to the world. Make justice for all people! Not only for a ruling elite. And you will see that arabs and terrorists and all other renegading countrys will give us the same respect as they use to show us. This is only my two cents. To play a game.

The same set of rules and respect for different nations cultures, laws and domestic problems that every different nation as I see it should solve on there own hand, and that is regardless to what we think. Cause I think there is as in the nature a natural cycle that we fortunately have disturb when we are still playing cowboys and indians. Our way of thinking is in my eyes the best way to deal with human rights issues and so on. But that is not an unversal thought and thats why I think that it is good with boarders and it is healthy with different points of views. If people dont like the way things are runned in there countrys.

Well let them fight for that as we did. Dont play heros and make all of us enemys because we think we are the best. Let people begin to think for themselfe and dont play dad an mom with peoples minds. If we are going to visit those nations or have profit from there oil or opium or what it can be. Then we just have to accept that they have their rules and we have our rules. Accept them or dont deal with them. This is my 2 cents for this topic. With respect towards soldiers on both sides in this devostating conflict.

Thanks for the word:
Doc.S
 
whosewar2000 said:
Would you please stop using "great war on terror"?
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No. They are terrorists. We are fighting a war agianst them. Makes sense to call it a War on Terror.
whosewar2000 said:
There is no such thing that war is great. Every war is sad. Especially prevention war is totally a mess. War shall always be defensive. Human being start to killing each other to death once everybody think "I shall kill you if I feel you want to kill me".
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I don't think many here need a lecture on war, myself included.

War is always a last resort for a reason. However, when you deal with an irrational and clearly irreconciliable enemy, you must take action.

Recently, two French journalists were kidnapped in Iraq. Where's the justification, in the world of tit for tat? France clearly set themselves on the sidelines in Iraq. Yet, the terrorists still target the French.

Why?
 
You're right Airborne, and the same can be asked about Russia, which has been targeted for years now.
The reason is, of course, that they hate us for what we ARE, not for we DO. To them, France is even worse than the US, because denies its religious roots, because makes it mandatory to hide one's religious symbols, because it's so coward (their view, not mine... :?: ) that it chose not to defend itself.
So, it's not for what the WEST (Russia now included) does, that it is a target, but for what it IS.
 
whosewar2000 said:
There is no such thing that war is great. Every war is sad. Especially prevention war is totally a mess. War shall always be defensive. Human being start to killing each other to death once everybody think "I shall kill you if I feel you want to kill me".
Click to expand...

May I direct you to this article. Striking First: A History of Thankfully Lost Opportunities

http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/viewMedia.php/prmTemplateID/8/prmID/866

Yes it talks about wars of prevention being but, but it also cites 4 instances in our history where it worked. It's a long article though.
 
I just wanted to back up the claim of how Sadam would take the children away from their parents and put them in prision until they could fight with his army. I have not only read it in a book recently written by a chaplin that served with the US Marines at the begining of the war, I have heard it from a lot of different people who were over there. I can't really put the names of who I talk to but the book is A Table In The Presence, by LT. ....Casey. (I foreget his first name and I've loaned my copy to a friend, the publisher is Integirty publishers though.)
 
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