Iraq resolution passes House
mmarsh
Active member
MarinerRhodes
So you agree that just reducing troops (draw down) would create more problems than do any good.
I do. I think thats the worst of options, as is limiting financing. We have to be 100% in Iraq, or 100% out. I'm in the 100% out camp because I'm sure the 100% in will never work.
Now perhaps you would be willing to concede the point that submission in this situation can cause aggression to places and peoples outside the borders of Iraq and Afghanistan? Not that it would but that it could.
Sorry, not ready (I'm a stubborn ass) :-D. I still think once the US leaves the two sides (Sunni and Shiite) will turn on each other, this will turn into a perpetual stalemate. The fighting will be so bloody that they will not have the time to attack other (Western) countries, at least not for a very long time. My hope is a situation like the Iran-Iraq war will happen, were both sides get so bloodied that they eventually tire out and work out an arrangement amongst themselves, and that both will be weaker for it.
Another oddity. As you know, al-Qaeda is a Sunni Muslim group. It would seem the the WH seem is more interested in attacking Shiite extremists (Iran, Syria, Lebanon) than attacking Sunni extremists like al-Qaeda. There are rumors that the DOD is actually helping the Sunni extremists (which have al-Qaeda roots) in southern Iraq because they fear the Shiite groups like Hezbollah so much. The New Yorker Magazine has a article on his very subject next month.
The World has flipped upside-down.
So you agree that just reducing troops (draw down) would create more problems than do any good.
I do. I think thats the worst of options, as is limiting financing. We have to be 100% in Iraq, or 100% out. I'm in the 100% out camp because I'm sure the 100% in will never work.
Now perhaps you would be willing to concede the point that submission in this situation can cause aggression to places and peoples outside the borders of Iraq and Afghanistan? Not that it would but that it could.
Sorry, not ready (I'm a stubborn ass) :-D. I still think once the US leaves the two sides (Sunni and Shiite) will turn on each other, this will turn into a perpetual stalemate. The fighting will be so bloody that they will not have the time to attack other (Western) countries, at least not for a very long time. My hope is a situation like the Iran-Iraq war will happen, were both sides get so bloodied that they eventually tire out and work out an arrangement amongst themselves, and that both will be weaker for it.
Another oddity. As you know, al-Qaeda is a Sunni Muslim group. It would seem the the WH seem is more interested in attacking Shiite extremists (Iran, Syria, Lebanon) than attacking Sunni extremists like al-Qaeda. There are rumors that the DOD is actually helping the Sunni extremists (which have al-Qaeda roots) in southern Iraq because they fear the Shiite groups like Hezbollah so much. The New Yorker Magazine has a article on his very subject next month.
The World has flipped upside-down.
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jequirity
Active member
MarinerRhodes
The World has flipped upside-down.
Like a certain woman driving a certain car near a certain gate?
Marinerhodes
Active member
Rumormongering and the media...perish the thought!!
Well at least you can see that I do have valid points even if you do not agree with them.
I can't disagree when you say the fighting will turn inwards. But I have to disagree when you state it will be a long time before the world sees the results of the US pulling out. I think there will be a government in power, albeit a tenuous power, that will be willing and able to strike at the US and allies from wherever.
Also with the Iran thing: Do you think it is plausible they can finance al-queda and other terrorist factions to wage war against the US and still focus on what they are currently doing in Iran as well as future plans for Iraq?
Remember, it only takes one semi-intelligent person and a little money to create widespread fear and panic.
mmarsh
Active member
Iran will never finance al-Qaeda, Iran is Shiite Muslim, al-Qaeda extremist Sunni. The Sunni have persecuted the Shiites for centuries, they will kill each other on sight.
Shiites and Sunni extremists differ.
The Shiites aren't interested in converting the world to Islam by force. They just want the Shiites to be the Regional Power, (like China does in Asia). Ultimately they seek economic and political Superpower status in the Middle East with the military power to back it up. They have no problems with the Western World (except Isreal) just as long as they stay out of their business, most European countries have diplomatic and economic relations with Iran. The UK for example...
I am not a fan of Iran, or of its plans for it to become a Middle East Superpower, but that being said, they are the lesser of two evils. They do use terrorism, but their targets are usually for political or military purposes. They are also fundamentalists, but they are not religious fanatics, unlike the group below...
The Sunni extremists, like al-Qaeda are the ones who kill civilians by the thousands. These are the people that think if you are not exactly like them, its a automatic death sentence. They are trying to move the world back into the 13th century. They kill people will absolutely to hesitation, or remorse. When you hear the term 'Islamofacism', it refers to these guys.
These are the fruitcakes we need to (but don't) go after. You can negiociate with the Iranian Mullahs. However, it is impossible to negociate with the Sunni al-Qaeda groups, they have to be hunted down and exterminated.
Which is exactly why I think Afghanistan-Pakistan, not Iraq, is the greater threat.
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Missileer
Active member
Well, someone is selling weapons to Iraq.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/26/D8NHMIB81.html
U.S. Finds Major Weapons Cache in Iraq
By KIM GAMEL
Associated Press Writer
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- U.S. officers said Monday they had discovered a factory for assembling sophisticated roadside bombs from Iranian-made components _ the first such facility uncovered in a religiously mixed province north of Baghdad.
The officers, who displayed weapons for reporters at a U.S. base in the capital, said the find provides more evidence that the Iranians are providing weapons used to kill Americans. They include EFPs _ explosively formed projectiles _ that fire a slug of molten metal capable of penetrating armored vehicles and have been blamed for killing more than 170 U.S. and coalition soldiers since 2004.
The display was the latest in a series presented by the U.S. military to bolster its allegation that Iranian weapons are being supplied to Shiite militias. Iran has denied the charge, and some private defense analysts say Iranian weaponry is widely available on international arms markets. U.S. ordnance experts maintain that the workmanship on component parts is uniquely Iranian and too high in quality to have been copied by Iraqi extremists without access to advanced machinery.
Among the parts found during a raid Saturday after a tip from an Iraqi informant were 120 mm mortars and 122 mm rockets that the military said were made in Iran. Markings indicated they were made after the U.S.-led invasion nearly four years ago, which would rule out that they were leftovers from the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran war.
The cache also included artillery, anti-personnel mines, as well as more than 150 metal discs, detonation cords, electronic triggering mechanisms and C-4 plastic explosives _ all laid out in piles for a press conference at the main U.S. military base on the western edge of Baghdad. The military said some smaller munitions had been destroyed at the site.
The U.S. military has said elite Iranian corps are funneling EFPs to Shiite militias in Iraq for use against American troops, and earlier this month reporters in Baghdad were shown pieces of EFPs officials said were directly traceable to Iran.
MORE--
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/26/D8NHMIB81.html
U.S. Finds Major Weapons Cache in Iraq
By KIM GAMEL
Associated Press Writer
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- U.S. officers said Monday they had discovered a factory for assembling sophisticated roadside bombs from Iranian-made components _ the first such facility uncovered in a religiously mixed province north of Baghdad.
The officers, who displayed weapons for reporters at a U.S. base in the capital, said the find provides more evidence that the Iranians are providing weapons used to kill Americans. They include EFPs _ explosively formed projectiles _ that fire a slug of molten metal capable of penetrating armored vehicles and have been blamed for killing more than 170 U.S. and coalition soldiers since 2004.
The display was the latest in a series presented by the U.S. military to bolster its allegation that Iranian weapons are being supplied to Shiite militias. Iran has denied the charge, and some private defense analysts say Iranian weaponry is widely available on international arms markets. U.S. ordnance experts maintain that the workmanship on component parts is uniquely Iranian and too high in quality to have been copied by Iraqi extremists without access to advanced machinery.
Among the parts found during a raid Saturday after a tip from an Iraqi informant were 120 mm mortars and 122 mm rockets that the military said were made in Iran. Markings indicated they were made after the U.S.-led invasion nearly four years ago, which would rule out that they were leftovers from the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran war.
The cache also included artillery, anti-personnel mines, as well as more than 150 metal discs, detonation cords, electronic triggering mechanisms and C-4 plastic explosives _ all laid out in piles for a press conference at the main U.S. military base on the western edge of Baghdad. The military said some smaller munitions had been destroyed at the site.
The U.S. military has said elite Iranian corps are funneling EFPs to Shiite militias in Iraq for use against American troops, and earlier this month reporters in Baghdad were shown pieces of EFPs officials said were directly traceable to Iran.
MORE--
mmarsh
Active member
Missileer
That's correct. But Iran is only supplying weapons for the Shiite militias, not the Sunni. It is also unclear if these weapons are sold by the Iran government or by independent group operating in Iran.
The Sunni get their financing from places like Saudi Arabia. They also stole a large share of Saddam's ammo dumps under the old Regime when we failed to guard them properly.
That's correct. But Iran is only supplying weapons for the Shiite militias, not the Sunni. It is also unclear if these weapons are sold by the Iran government or by independent group operating in Iran.
The Sunni get their financing from places like Saudi Arabia. They also stole a large share of Saddam's ammo dumps under the old Regime when we failed to guard them properly.
Missileer
Active member
The cache was found in a religiously mixed province North of Baghdad. But Iran does sell a lot of arms on the market. I think the article was meant to inform people that they were being provided by someone outside as they were too sophistocated and high quality to have been produced by insurgents in Iraq.