oRTouCH, hanging people isnt an issue for me... As long as they are criminals, you can hang as many as you want... I really dont mind at all.

They are a democracy with a constitution based on religion, as should be a Muslim country.
Islam is a religion of law... I studied the Arab culture and Islam, wrote three memoirs on the subject.

And I saw no barrier to democracy in the doctrine.

Turkey isnt a oil rich country...
And Israel is not a democracy... It's a racist state. They mimick democracy, but they practice torture and have no respect for human rights...

What's next? after that, you are going to tell us that the US is a democracy?

Originally Posted by LeMask

They are a democracy with a constitution based on religion, as should be a Muslim country.

Sir I know that Iran is called democracy but I insist that Iran is not a democracy at all. Because democracy has some key features, and I see only one feature of democracy in Iran. The elections. Let's have a look at the demoracy roughly.

Key elements of Democracy:
-A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections. (Iran has elections but we are not sure whether they are fair or not.)
-The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life. (People participate but they are forced to choose a side.)
-Protection of the human rights of all citizens. (Human rights? In Iran?)
-A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens. (If you are supporter of Ahmedinejad or Islamic revolution, you are good. But if you are an opposer and talk about your ideas, wait for whip punishment.)
- Democracy requires secularism. (This is the funny one, a secular Iran based on a Islamic government?)

You studied about Arabic culture and Islam sir, but I am myself a Muslim and living in Turkey, neighbour to Iran. I know people fleeing from Iran to Turkey to save themselves.

Originally Posted by LeMask

Turkey isnt a oil rich country...

When I was talking about Turkish democracy, I was just responding the sentence of Justice which is: "The reality is Iran is more democratic than any other Middle Eastern country".

I share most of your views here, but let's not forget that Iran is at war against a dominant force in the world.

There is a huge load of propaganda in the air.

Iran is right now under attack. In the media, by a government made virus targeting its oil infrastructure, terrorists funded by foreign powers etc etc... Many attacks are happening right now as we speak.

In fact, we dont know if the elections were fair or not... One thing is sure. If Iran was a dictatorship, the opposition to the regime would be outside the reach of Iran's government.

And there is human rights in Iran. It's not Sweden. But believe it or not, they have a working justice system, and it's much better than many many countries...

And no, you dont have to be secular to be a democrat. Turkey is ruled this way, but it's not THE ULTIMATE solution... It might work in Turkey. But it's not the perfect doctrine.

Once again mate, I studied this part. I studied Islam as a system. And its not working on the individual level. It have to work at group level. Family, tribe, village, city, country, federal... Whatever... But at the individual level, it's not working. You cant be Muslim alone, you need other Muslims and a Muslim environment.

The Secular political doctrine was made for a particular environment. It was made in Europe where the Europeans were dominated by a corrupt church in bed with monarchy using holy powers to rule the lands.

Secularism was made to cut the monarchy from their religious legitimacy. So they can be changed and by keeping religion outside politics.

But in Islam, religion is politics. And there is no clergy, no holy monarchy... Nothing.

Speaking about secularism in a Muslim environment is in fact a crazy thing... It's like selling scuba gear to a fish...

In fact:
Secularism in a Muslim environment is anti-democratic. Because in that environment every man/woman is the clergy in power. Isolating them from political power is disconnecting the citizens from politics... And that's the exact opposite of democracy.

Dont feel insulted when I said that Iran is more democratic than any middle eastern country. I dont remember saying that, for me, Iran is more democratic than other oil rich countries. As for me, oil is a curse. When you have oil, people try to bring havoc on you to control the oil production.

And I would add that for me Turkey is an European country.

And excuse me, but Muslims are the last to know anything about their own religion... Islam is a very sophisticated religion, system... And it's in Arabic, a very sophisticated language.

Most Muslim arent Arabs... Most Muslims are poorly educated (academic standpoint)

So, with these two "conditions"... Islam is an alien religion to most Muslims.

And it explains why they have so many problems with poverty, lack of education, lack of social politics, corruption, terrorism, dictatorships... etc etc...

And I'm not provoking you or anything... But correct me if i'm wrong. Didnt the military in Turkey had to intervene in politics to cancel elections?
What does it tell us about democracy in Turkey?

Human rights in Iran???. According to Iranian law, homosexual relations are against the law and given the death penalty.

Complex subject.

1- It would be incoherent for a Muslim country to allow homosexuality in the public sphere.

2- Homosexuality happen outside the public sphere.

To explain it. Homosexuality is legal in Iran as long as it doesnt happen openly.

Do you get it? It's an alien concept for a Westerner as we dont separate public sphere and private sphere.

In these countries, you have the public sphere, outside your home. Where you have to obey the laws of the community ruling the area. And then, there is the private sphere, inside your home, where you are the ruler in your "Harram" (sanctuary)

The homosexuals in Iran have the right to exist. They are in fact asking for the right to exist openly in the public sphere.

And in fact, the public sphere is closed even to heterosexuals if you look carefully... How many maried couple you see kissing in the streets of Teheran?
I will tell you. NONE.

And I dont see you asking for the right to kiss your wife in Iranian streets in front of everybody...

Homosexuality is legal in Iran as long as it doesn’t happen openly. NOT

Homosexual relations that occur between consenting adults in private are a crime and carry a maximum punishment of death.

Approved by the Islamic Republic Parliament on 30/7/1991 and finally ratified by the High Expediency Council on 28/11/1991, articles 108 through 140 distinctly talk about homosexuality and its punishments in detail.

Info from the Iranian gay and lesbian human rights group Homan.


Democracy; NOT


http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/iran-executions-send-chilling-message-2010-03-30

Micha, it's not logic.
If it happens in private... How can they arrest them? They wouldnt even know...

It have to leave the private sphere to reach the authorities, to provoke arrests.

It's not illegal for a man to bring another man home when he is alone. And the state doesnt send the police to check what they are doing in bed...

In Morroco, homosexuality is forbidden by law... But every gay guy you meet in Marrakesh will tell you that they have a gay neighborhood, and bars, restaurants, night clubs where they can meet openly...

And it's not even new... It was this way decades ago...

Laws dont have the same place in society following the country... In our countries, laws define how we live. In others, the laws define how they should live.

Asking them to authorize homosexuality is like asking them to promote homosexuality...

We are living in individual societies, where we think at the individual level. While theirs is a family model.

If a family chooses to accept homosexuality (a gay son). They have all the necessary tools to make that. The law gave them a sanctuary for that, and we call it home.

Well, It's very hard to show and very complex... But believe me, our concepts are very different from theirs...

And by the way. From their perspective. We are mistreating the homosexuals too.
As we allow them to be openly homosexuals, we protect them by law... But we dont give them the right to marry. To adopt kids... etc...

They are superior in the way they treat homosexuals as they are coherent with their own principles.
While we are not. Well, most countries are not.

Gestapo in Nazi Germany, the Stasi in the former East Germany, in Iran you have VEVAK (Vezarat-e Ettela'at va Amniyat e Keshvar) So yes, they know what goes on in your home if they wish. People are being reported by friends, neighbors, coworkers and even family members. Iran is a totalitarian state.

Well, homosexuals can be married and even adopt children in my country.

It's true, these things do happen. People report other people, and the authorities are then forced to intervene to fix the situation.

I never said that Iran is heaven if you are a homosexual.

I just say that Iran and muslim countries in particular have to evolve following a different path.
We should pressure them to give more room for homosexuals (among others)... But we shouldnt tell them how... As we would be exporting our concepts of society. And believe on this, they dont mix well.
If you want to make a society unable to function or evolve, mix two foreign concepts...

And dont compare Sweden to other countries... You are light years ahead in your country.

But the dumb asses in France (as an example) refuse gay marriage... We allow them to exist, but if they get close to a child, we pursue them with a broom screaming "Stay away from the child you sick pervert." Wow... that's tolerance.

Originally Posted by LeMask

And I'm not provoking you or anything... But correct me if i'm wrong. Didnt the military in Turkey had to intervene in politics to cancel elections?
What does it tell us about democracy in Turkey?

In fact they staged a coup in 1980. They did not intervene elections. They staged a coup but it was the last option for them. Chaos in the streets, nationalists against communists, conflict among civilians.. They established the order and let the politicians to rule the country again.