IRAN, IRAK and the US position.

Since a few weeks, Ms Rice promises a surgical attack on Iran's nuclear sites (or supposed to be so), and Mr Bush says he dreams of democracy in the Middle-East (I have a dream... ).

But facts appear to be really far from that reality.

So now what? ... a few days ago, Iraki people elected the chiia Ayatollah Sistani's coalition, mostly composed with guys who lived in Iran (like Mr Abdel-Aziz Hackim). Ready for The Islamic Republic of Irak, thanks Mr Bush...

Then the nuclear question in Iran: first, we have to remember that IAEA inspectors never found any trace of nuclear weapons or nuclear aramament developpement. Only suspicions because of Iran's anti-USA well-known policy. The proposal made by the European alliance (France, GB, Germany) to supply Iran with a light-water central is like asking them to refuse their own power supply sufficiency and buy instead Europe uranium. Nobody would accept such a deal... And when Europe proposes commercial facilities, like the introduction of Iran in the International Commerce Chamber, the USA vetoes the UN decisions.

And we won't just speak about the american plans to build pipelines through Irak-Iran-Afghanistan to join China and sell its oil to south-east asia countries. Plans impossible to realize as long as Iran is refusing them.

Concerning an attack on Iran, many american people seem to see it as a possible easy solution to lots of problems... is it really?
First, you have to consider China and Russia uncertain attitutes, as long as they are involved in Iran's nuclear plants constructions. Today China is the first iranian commercial partner and it would not accept attacks on Iran so easily. Then the offensive position of the iranian army with its 5 million ready-to-fight men and its ability to manufacture mass-destruction weapons.
The USA recently announced 1600 deaths in Irak's war, but Irak is a 12 million inhabitants country, with no army since 1991, only the size of half France... what if Bush attacks Iran, with its 72 million inhabitants, 4th the size of France, and its quite modern army?
Tehran announced yesterday thhe beginning of new torpedes production for its sub-marine ships. This to be added to one of the best biochemical weapons production and teh Shahab weapons. And what about Syria, Lebanon and Irak position in case of attacks on Iran (teh leader country for the chiia muslims?).
We are facing a strange America, trying to hide its destabilized position, facing a country which showed its abilities to be the only country in the world not to be scared by the USA (is someone remembering 1981?).

And Bush trying to explain he wants the democracy in Iran? Yeah, so why did America destroy the Irnian democracy of 1956-1960 under the regimeof Mossadegh then? Who will believe America now? Who will believe that its' not the iranian petroleum industry that majkes this country so important to big brother's eyes? Democracy? What about Saudi Arabia? What about Pakistan? 2 of the worst dictatorships in the world, still allies of USA. Who's speaking abourt democracy?

And Ms Rice trying to explain that Iran should not develop nuclear plants as far as nobody's sure of what Iran can do with its enriched uranium... well, why shouldn't Iran have the atom bomb?
When you consider that Israel, with its president Sharon (the ancient General Sharon, responsible of Sabra and Shatila 's genocide) got 200 nuclear weapons, nicely offered by the western countries?
When you consider that North Corea has just declared it possesses the atom bomb, one more in the long list after Pakistan and India...

So now what?....
I thought coming here would give me intelligent answers but I'm still facing with nationalist Americans thinking that the USA got the power to eradicate any country on its pathway, and that GW Bush is the world's saver... what a good joke...
 
You would do well to adjust your attitude if you are planning on staying on this forum, no country-bashing or flaming will be allowed, it is not only possible to do so, but it is also required that while on these forums you present your views in a mature and respectful manner. Nothing is added to your argument by including insults.


Report to the Welcoming center immediately and post an introduction.
 
Keep in mind that I respect your opinion and that I ask that you respect ours.

Okay first off, you say American's are a bunch of nationalists with out the capability of choosing our own paths (well implied by your ignorant comments). Well my friend, we are the ones who mastered the art of free speech and individuality so do not go ranting about how we are all bias towards the United States stand point on foreign policy. I do not blame you, being from France, with little knowledge of how our society operates, but if you want to disagree with us, disagree respectfully.

Secondly, the Honorable George W. Bush is a very sensible man. He is no Sadaam, Castro, Mussolini, or Hitler. He does not believe in genocide, hence he would not send the men and women under his command to fight for oil. So I do believe that your claim of the United States fighting the war in IraQ for oil is quite foolish (this is only my opinion).

Third, I do believe you drastically under estimate the United States military. They were the ones who bailed out the French if I recall during WW2, defeated Facism, dealt a severe blow to Communism, freed a nation of millions, and all without the help of some of her so called "allies". I believe it was the Honorable Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense (USA) who said that "Going to war without France is like going Deer hunting without your accordion" (Rumsfeld). The United States military has proven itself time and time again, defeating the worlds most powerful army in the late 17 hundreds with little more then farmers and stable boys. It has faught more then 14 wars in its short 229 year histroy and has motified the way it operates accordingly. The United States military posesses the worlds most advanced equiptment, therefore compensating for its lack of numbers (which by most standards is not valid because few countries posess more members).

You say you want intelligent answers but if you are going to make excuses like "Oh hes just being a nationlist" when you do not like the answer, don't ask.
 
Did I add insults? I am just pointing some lacks of the idealist amercian system.

Here in France, we got some different points of view. What I read in some threads here is much more insulting for the people of many countries in the world than what I tried to show. It seems that you consider many 3rd world inhabitants like savages living in terrorist countries, and I read in some lines that "America should bring them back to Stone Age"... yes, but for the moment, it's the US army that produces half the world weapons and without this industry, there would be less deaths I think.

I was expecting a reaction as I was perfectly aware that what you are tought is very far from the reality. Try not to be addicted to FOX NEWS, stop being the slave of a "ready to go" brain-system supplied by your government. Try to learn the respect of other countries, which were there a long time before America's creation. That's my message. Sorry if you cannot stand it guys.
 
wow...easy, u better avoid generalization as u just see someone talking loud and u think all ppl in this country talk super loud...that is wrong...


in every country, there are nationalists, moderatists, or traitors........u just cannot generalize them
 
Oh good call, I can see you know a lot about earning respect. To earn ones respect it means giving respect. I could go off for years ranting on about the shortcomings of the French but you know what, I respect your opinion. I really do and I am glad that you are forming an opinion. While I disagree with you whole-heartedly and am offended by your comments, I respect what you said. Good job brother, here in America, we believe in justice, whether it be corrective or commendatory and by gosh, some day you will recieve yours respectively.
 
Whether you agree or disagree here try having any disagreement in Iran and see what it gets you.
 
... ya really think that you sent your guys in Irak to solve democracy problems? Try to explain me why you did not attack China then? Do you really think that your army would have attacked Irak if the USA were not expecting to obtain something there?

Ya know, I have the chance to speak 4 languages and that permits me to compare the news on diffrent satellite TVs.

I'm really out of laugghs sometimes when I hear about Al Qaeda relations with Saddam or Iran...

Al Qaeda is composed with Wahabit muslims, very close to some Saudi Arabia's sheikhs, ennemies of Saddam. And all those people are sunni muslims ennemies of Iran's chiia muslims. But that seems to be forgotten by many american TV channels. Only some rare films like Fahrenheit 911 have tried to expose you the truth... but are you ready to open your eyes?
 
Are you sure it is not us right-wing gas guzzeling, hillbilly, war mungerers who have opened our eyes and see no need to create ignorant, wanna-be Stalinist propoganda videos such as Farenheight 9/11? Are we so caught up in yellow journalism that we have lost all site of the values layed down by OUR founding fathers? Actions speak louder then words and 9/11 just happened to be the fire under our butts to get us moving. It amuses me that you honestly believe we have not considered those things, that we have not used our highly educated analysts who went to college for years and years and years to help create foreign policy... Food for thought brother. Food for thought...
 
I see you were very shocked when I talked about "american nationalists"... What should I have said reading all the contempt in some replies in this forum. Don't be afraid, I got 2 american uncles and I do not generalize. I may send unusual messages, but I do not belong to any army. My only motivation is speaking about facts that you don't hear about over there, 'cause if it was so, none of your guys would go to die in Irak any more.

Maybe I will be like the tornado, but it's better than doing like many people in the world who consider you as Bush's toys and don't say nothing but "pfff ... un jour ils vont se casser la gueule... ils vont rien comprendre..." ("pfff... one day they'll fall and won't even understand how...").
 
THE IRANIAN said:
... ya really think that you sent your guys in Irak to solve democracy problems? Try to explain me why you did not attack China then? Do you really think that your army would have attacked Irak if the USA were not expecting to obtain something there?

Ya know, I have the chance to speak 4 languages and that permits me to compare the news on diffrent satellite TVs.

I'm really out of laugghs sometimes when I hear about Al Qaeda relations with Saddam or Iran...

Al Qaeda is composed with Wahabit muslims, very close to some Saudi Arabia's sheikhs, ennemies of Saddam. And all those people are sunni muslims ennemies of Iran's chiia muslims. But that seems to be forgotten by many american TV channels. Only some rare films like Fahrenheit 911 have tried to expose you the truth... but are you ready to open your eyes?

It makes no difference how many languages you claim to speak, you still must respect others' opinions on this forum. Read the rules, country bashing is NOT allowed here. One more thing, report to the Welcoming center immediately and post an introduction.

Consider that a second warning about following the rules.
 
Your very very educated brains. That's exactly what I'm speaking about. You are not the only country to have Nobel Price scientists and Einstein was not American as far as I know.
You want a paradox? A certain Ali Javan invented the gaz-lazer ... and he was Iranian. Like him, many scientists got to the USA, because of the "American dream", but I can't imagine what would be America without them all.

The problem is that in the USA, everythin you do is controlled by organisms like the CIA, and your president would never take one decision without the Pentagon agreement. You're right guys, it's not Bush who sent your youths there, it's Rumsfeld.

And it's the same CIA who possesses 60% of the TVs advertisment industry in the USA. So, of course you got the best army, and no one would say the contrary men, and of course your best brains are working for USA to stay the NUMBER 1. But who gives you the right to attck this or that country? In the name of God ? Or maybe more simply in the name of America's Economy?
 
THE IRANIAN said:
Your very very educated brains. That's exactly what I'm speaking about. You are not the only country to have Nobel Price scientists and Einstein was not American as far as I know.
You want a paradox? A certain Ali Javan invented the gaz-lazer ... and he was Iranian. Like him, many scientists got to the USA, because of the "American dream", but I can't imagine what would be America without them all.

Well that fact is that the USA was built on immigration, everyone here is an immigrant in their history,save for the Native Americans.I think that is one of the US's strongest quality though,diversity,and with it diverse ideas on culture and technologies.
 
Moderators: I'm not trying to bash any country. I'm not against the USA. I'm against USA actual foreign policy. I'm somehow against Mr Bush decisions and his foolish ideas. Someone spoke about generalization here? What when your president speaks about "the evil axe" or "the big middle-east project" ...

maybe you cannot here different opinions from those you are used to listen. I came here by my own. I thought that maybe it would be useful.

Cxxxx: I have nothing against you guy, and I'm not wainting for your respect. Respect 3rd world people, and that will be enough for me, and God will bless you.
 
Friend, I do not believe that the things you say are correct. It may be my lack of paranoia or my 20-20 vision, but I saw n o facts supporting your claims.l Your use of inductive reasoning (citing specific cases rather then facts) may work well for those less educated or logic oriented, but not for facts conditioned members of society. You make these claims yet give no proof. I respect your opinion and I want to understand what you are saying, but you have no shown yourself to be very reliable. Give some kind of proof that the CIA controls 60%, heck lets make it 10% of what goes on the T.V., and I will begin to see it your way. Please, I ask that you act mature (i.e. no smart-ass comments or tough guy left-wing comentary), as I will do my best to remain neutral until proven one way or the other. I am a devout Christian, but I will not let that interfere with my proofs as I will give facts as well. You wanted intelligent answers, I will do my best, as should the rest of the members on this forum. Thanks for your time brother.
 
Okay. one by one then.

So, I will start with Iran's case as it seems to be THE actual America's problem and that I have some good reasons to speak about this country.

Brief History (tell me if I forget something broth):

1935: After the loss of regions like Irak, Afghanistan, Pakistan... because of English pressure, the last part of the Persia Empire becomes offcially IRAN (which litterrally means "the country of the Arians" ---> Iranians have european origins).

An army general, Reza Chah Pahlavi, supported by the USA and England, proclames himself Imperator or "Shah". He is a dictator, but he loves Iran and modernizes the country.

After the 2nd World War, Iran becomes the 1rst American ally in the Middle East, and the only country not to be communist.

After his death, his son becomes Shah. He is very close to President Carter and he forgets that his country is not France, nor America.
He makes 3 big mistakes:
- He introduces the mechanization in the Iranian Agriculture, without concertation. Thousands of people loose their jobs and become communists.
- He forbidds the hidding of hair for women.... in a muslim country!
- Fearing the communist evolution, he diminishes the number of universities.

1956: Riots make the Shah escape to the USA.

Mossadegh installs a democracy, based on the french model.

The first law adopted by the regime is the oil nationalization. Soon Egypt and Irak do the same. The OPEP is created.
That means that Western countries will have to buy their oil, no more free oil.
America, the 1rst Iran's partner, withdraws its capitals, as an answer to the Mossadegh government decision. The iranian economy faces a crisis.
The law is adopted. And nobody could do nothing against it as slowly all the oil producers adopt the same policy.
But the whole iranian economy is based on America's exchange and the loss of this partner takes the country down to its knies.

1959: The Shah comes back. Again dictatorship.

1979: Iran's revolution.

In competition background between Europe and the USA, France and England propose Ayatollah Khomeyni to replace the Shah (he arrives in Iran in an Air France plane, with the French Foreign Minister, announced by the BBC).
Khomeyni promises the creation of a Democracy adapted to Iran: the model of the ISLAMIC DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN.

A few months later, 30000 communists are being assassinated by the SAVAC, the Iranian secret services.

Khomeyni proclaims the martial order. He suppresses all the political parties and declares his intentions to create the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC and his wishes to expand the model to the other muslim countries.

IRAK was a 14 million inhabitants country.
IRAN was a 68 million inhabitants country, 4th army of teh world.

facing the Islamic republic, and all the problems of terrorism it creates, Europe and the USA help Saddam Hussein to attack Iran. A resolution of the UN makes an embargo on IRAN.

1981-1988 : 7 years of war.

1989: At the end of the cold war, Iran's army is 60km from Bagdad.

But Russia is no more Iran's ally and Gorbatchev government wants to be closer to the USA.

The UN proposes Iran to come back to its 1981's borders. Iran accepts and signs an armistice with Irak.

Saddam has lost 2 million men in this war. His country is totally out of order. But he's got lost of Frenc-German weapons (the famous SCUDs) and American F16 aircrafts.

1990: Saddam attacks Koweït, a very small country between Irak and Iran.

You know what happened to Saddam then. And of course, the Islamic Republic became more and more powerful since then. And now Irak is following the same model.

How can I trust Mr Bush when he says he want democracy in these countries then?
When I was watching Foxnews last year, I was really shocked to see how they could transform Saddam Hussein in "a big devil" while he was USA's ally only 10 years before... teh poor man had not understood your manners....
 
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That poor man you speak of, between this day and that committed mass genocide, gasing the Kurds, women and children. Tell me that is not a fact and I will tell you you are a liar. That very same Sadaam had 12 years if I do recall to just admitt to not having WMDs. He had 12 years to comply with UN (United Nations, not just the United States) orders to which he himself agreed to. Then, the Honorable George W. Bush gave him yet more time to comply. With time a' waisting, we have him a deadline that he could either meet, or be destroyed. He refused to meet that deadline (which was not just for WMD's) and so the United States, Italy, Britain, and Japan forceably removed him from power, only to have all of those countries agree that a Democracy is what is best for that country. Is it not true that in Iraq, there was ONE name on the ballot and that was Sadaam. Is it not true that Sadaam killed innocent Iraqies because they spoke out against him. Is it not true that Sadaam participated, HIMSELF in an assasination attempt on the previous dictator? Is that the kind of man that should be ruling a country so vital as Iraq is to the world economy, more importantly the millions of people who were scared, under penalty of death, to stay loyal. Something had to be done and well my friend, no one else stepped up to the plate.

As for your comment about the CIA controling 60% of T.V. adds, what makes you think this? On that, what facts made you believe this and where did you recieve them?
 
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