Iran to hold conference debunking holocaust - Page 2




 
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Iran to hold conference debunking holocaust
 
January 13th, 2006  
Rabs
 
 
Iran to hold conference debunking holocaust
Quote:
As for Iran well I strongly suspect that this was just another episode of a national leader trying to get some political capital on a populist position and even armed to the teeth nothing more will come of it due to self preservation instincts unless of course the west chooses to over react and push him into a corner.
Hes crazy enough that he will brandish his shiny new nukes and demand things left and right. I have nukse i should be on the UN secruity council. etc etc...

Then theres the whole whipeing Israel off the map thing. He is a nut case he will sacrafice his country to destroy Israel and god knows if he gets nukes hes going to poliferate them to groups we dont like very well *cough* Hamas *cough*
January 13th, 2006  
Whispering Death
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
As for Iran well I strongly suspect that this was just another episode of a national leader trying to get some political capital on a populist position and even armed to the teeth nothing more will come of it due to self preservation instincts unless of course the west chooses to over react and push him into a corner.
God that sounds so much like Hitler I couldn't have said it better myself. You just repeated word for word the French mindset in 1937.
January 13th, 2006  
mmarsh
 
 
I dont think he's crazy. What I think Ahmadinejad is trying to do is silence the very load voices for reform by trying to re-spark the 1979 Revolution. In creating a conflict with the West the idea is silence the democracy-minded reformists (the people the Mullahs really fear) by creating a spirit of nationalism. A nuclear program, nazi revisionism are all lures into ultra nationalism.

In short, its a plan to create a nuclear armed, Islamic fundimentalist, ultra-nationalist state.

That idea makes Saddam look like a 3rd rate two bit dictator in comparison, doesnt it?
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Iran to hold conference debunking holocaust
January 13th, 2006  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
I dont think he's crazy. What I think Ahmadinejad is trying to do is silence the very load voices for reform by trying to re-spark the 1979 Revolution. In creating a conflict with the West the idea is silence the democracy-minded reformists (the people the Mullahs really fear) by creating a spirit of nationalism. A nuclear program, nazi revisionism are all lures into ultra nationalism.

In short, its a plan to create a nuclear armed, Islamic fundimentalist, ultra-nationalist state.

That idea makes Saddam look like a 3rd rate two bit dictator in comparison, doesnt it?
If this is the case then by all means blow him and his type off the face of the earth and move on the problem is that in trying to stop Iran developing nuclear power you are effectively stopping their economic development which in the long run creates more followers for the Bin Ladens of the world.

Personally I think its time for an "liberal" ultimatum, basically you can have new technology nuclear plants but spent fuel has to disposed of via internationally acceptable approved systems anything outside this or any short change in the fuel destroyed and it will destroyed.
It allows for Iran to have nuclear power without developing a weapons program and gives them clear consequenses to their actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispering Death
God that sounds so much like Hitler I couldn't have said it better myself. You just repeated word for word the French mindset in 1937.
I think there is a major difference in that Hitler believed he could win, Iran (unless their chief is a complete nutter) knows that it cant and the power of self preservation in these "radical" leaders is generally much stronger than it appears in their broadcasts.
January 14th, 2006  
Ted
 
 
I just reckon that we don't need to prove their stupidity, they themselves will do that for us! And if they do meet, I want to be there. I'll film it and become an instant hit at the Comedy Train. My ticket to wealth and fortune.... at last!
January 14th, 2006  
phoenix80
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
I dont think he's crazy. What I think Ahmadinejad is trying to do is silence the very load voices for reform by trying to re-spark the 1979 Revolution. In creating a conflict with the West the idea is silence the democracy-minded reformists (the people the Mullahs really fear) by creating a spirit of nationalism. A nuclear program, nazi revisionism are all lures into ultra nationalism.

In short, its a plan to create a nuclear armed, Islamic fundimentalist, ultra-nationalist state.

That idea makes Saddam look like a 3rd rate two bit dictator in comparison, doesnt it?
The clerical establishment survival depends on creating chaos and crisis.

They cant live in peace or with peace!
January 14th, 2006  
Whispering Death
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I think there is a major difference in that Hitler believed he could win, Iran (unless their chief is a complete nutter) knows that it cant and the power of self preservation in these "radical" leaders is generally much stronger than it appears in their broadcasts.
What makes you think he doesn't think he can win? Barbarians sacked Rome after all.

Europe can't project it's power into the middle east, the US is busy fighting an unpopular war in Iraq, Russia+China are oil-buddies. And now they're seeking nukes. What's so bad about that?
January 14th, 2006  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispering Death
What makes you think he doesn't think he can win? Barbarians sacked Rome after all.

Europe can't project it's power into the middle east, the US is busy fighting an unpopular war in Iraq, Russia+China are oil-buddies. And now they're seeking nukes. What's so bad about that?
Because there is nothing to win.

At best (and by best I mean from his point of view) he "might" be able to make Israel glow in the dark but in doing so he has pretty much destroyed the middle east and Iran itself.
I also think even the most despotic leader knows that firing off a nuke is just a prelude to self destruction therefore they only really want them to keep themselves in power.

What it comes down to is that mutually assured destruction as repugnant as it sounds works.
January 14th, 2006  
phoenix80
 
 
The Axis of Order?
January 13, 2006
The New York Times
Thomas L. Friedman

Last September, Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick gave a speech to the National Committee on United States-China Relations in which he repeatedly urged China to become a responsible "stakeholder" in the international system. It turns out that there is no word in Chinese for "stakeholder," and the initial Chinese reaction was puzzlement and reaching for a dictionary. Did Mr. Zoellick mean "steak holder?" After all, he was speaking at a dinner. Maybe this was some Texas slang for telling China it had to buy more U.S. beef? Well, eventually the Chinese got a correct interpretation.

At the time, I thought Mr. Zoellick was raising an important point, but I now believe it is an urgent point. Why? Because Iran is determined to build a nuclear bomb, and the only nations with the clout to stop it - by diplomatic means - are China, Russia and India. Let's hope they act, because if Iran goes nuclear, the international order that has evolved since the cold war ended could unravel.

Iran decided this week to defy the U.S., Europe and the U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency - by removing the I.A.E.A. seals at three Iranian nuclear sites - so Tehran can resume uranium enrichment, a key step in making a bomb.

The I.A.E.A. seals were put in place two and a half years ago, after the U.N. agency found that Iran was in breach of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Iran could have been referred to the Security Council then for sanctions. But instead, in return for keeping the seals on Iran's facilities, the Europeans tried to negotiate an end to the crisis.

Why has this now become a stakeholder test for China, Russia and India? Because if the Iranian mullahs - who are now awash in petro- dollars - know one thing, it is how to read power and weakness. The Iranians know that the U.S. has already put all the sanctions on Iran that it can. They seriously doubt that the Europeans will ever impose sanctions. And - this is the key - even if the Security Council censures Iran, and Europe miraculously joins the U.S. in imposing sanctions, the Iranians assume that China, Russia and India (that's half the world) will never follow.

Iran will back down only if China, Russia and India make it clear that they are not only willing to let Iran's case be taken up by the Security Council - a step sought by the U.S. and Europe - but that they will also join in stringent economic sanctions. Western threats, which Iran's radical president dismissed with the back of his hand yesterday as some little "fuss," are no longer credible.

Communist Russia and China opposed the U.S. during the cold war, and socialist India was neutral. But since the end of the cold war, all three countries have embraced capitalism and become huge players - and beneficiaries - in today's global economy, with Russia providing oil and gas, China manufacturing and India software. All three now have a huge stake in the stability of the international system.

But these countries have basically been cruising along as free riders on a stable international order, which has been maintained largely by the U.S., with help from the E.U., NATO and Japan. Both Russia and China have actually used their clout at times to protect international bad actors - like Iran, Sudan and North Korea - out of a narrow economic self-interest and a kind of residual third-world, gotta-counter-the-Americans reflex.

But if Iran defies the U.N. and goes nuclear, it will give an already nasty regime a shield behind which to make even more trouble - from Iraq to Israel and Europe. It would also be likely to lead to the end of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, to a possible military strike against Iran by Israel or America - which would surely disrupt the Persian Gulf oil supplies that India and China depend upon - and to a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. The Sunni Arabs may tolerate the Jews' having a bomb, but not the Shiite Persians' having one. The Arabs would want their own bomb. And Russia would have an unstable, nuclear-armed Iran on its border.

In fairness, India, China and Russia have taken small steps to defuse the crisis and signal Iran that they don't approve of its actions and may let it be hauled before the Security Council.

That helped keep Iran on the fence - for a while. But now Iran has gotten off the fence, and so must Russia, China and India. For their own sakes, if not ours, these emerging big three have got to become the Axis of Order. The old cops on the beat can't deal with the Axis of Evil alone anymore. Pay attention to how this one ends, folks. The structure of the whole post-cold-war world is at stake.
link to original article
January 14th, 2006  
Whispering Death
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Because there is nothing to win.

At best (and by best I mean from his point of view) he "might" be able to make Israel glow in the dark but in doing so he has pretty much destroyed the middle east and Iran itself.
I also think even the most despotic leader knows that firing off a nuke is just a prelude to self destruction therefore they only really want them to keep themselves in power.

What it comes down to is that mutually assured destruction as repugnant as it sounds works.
Well, flip this scenario. If IEDs cause the kind of unrest we see in American discourse now with respect to war. Imagine what nukes would do to that!

And let's just say WORST CASE SCENARIO there's a nuclear war with Israel where a few are launched here and there... not the huge MAD rules we saw in the cold war because just one nuke can take out all of israel. The majority of the Iranian leadership emerges from their deep bunkers victorious and despite the large civilian casualties do you really see them losing power given the soceity they're in? They just killed all the hated jews after all!