Indicators of a Blue Water Navy

CABAL

CABAL

Active member
Chinese Amphibious Assualt Ship LHD somewhere around 17,000tonne displacement carrying hovercraft and Helo.

After seeing this it is clear the programme is focused on the projection of Naval Power. Not even last year this ship have been reported to be built and just recently this photo is circulating on the internet seen as almost complete.

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Varyag Refit
Notice the Carrier is now given a PLA Color Paint job.
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I thought China bought the carrier to be used as the centerpiece of a military themed amusement park, further proof that China's economic rise is proportional to it's adoption of capitalist and democratic principles.
 
You're confusing the Varyag and the Minsk Damian, but no worries as the Minsk is up "for sale" and will soon be refitted as well.

The pictures of the LHD under construction is in Lushun.

The picture of the Varyag is taken in Dalian proper... in fact I can see the building of my old apartment in the photo... I miss Dalian. I assume Cabal youre being sarcastic referencing the "PLA paint job"... its in fact a rust-proofing base coat for the superstructure.
 
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China will not want to be intimidated as it has in the past (eg. hands off Taiwan or else Uncle Sam wackss with big stick) and so this is another step in China flexing muscles and it will be interesting in 5 - 10 years time to see Chinese behaviour internationally - probably more brazen????
 
With the advent of better Spy Satellites, GPS, and new Missiles, like the Hypersonic Cruse Missiles, moving at speeds somewhere around Mach 7, with a range greater than 500 miles, I fail to see why China, or the United States for that matter would wish to put money into large Surface Combatants.

Unless China, or the United States for that matter was planning on knocking out Spy Satellites beforehand, so as to help hide the large Surface Combatants.
 
It is still the best way to project air power beyond the geographic limits of any country's boundaries and Billy Mitchell proved long ago the value of air superiority.
 
bulldogg said:
It is still the best way to project air power beyond the geographic limits of any country's boundaries and Billy Mitchell proved long ago the value of air superiority.
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Today perhaps, but next month, next year, or the year after, who knows. Battleships were once thought invincible and indispensable to the powerful Navies of the World as well.
 
What really sucks is that some of the steal that made those ships were sold to Red China from the World Trade Center.
 
What really sucks is that some of the steal that made those ships were sold to Red China from the World Trade Center.
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REALLY??? "Steal", or is it "Steel". You got a source for that?
 
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It didn't mention a single word of "Warship" or any kind in the source. Reasons why the demand for Steele is so strong in China is because with all the new construction for skyscrapers, railroads, and all other big projects are occurring at the same time. This is a type of country that would build the world's largest dam and at the same time build one of the tallest skyscrapers in the world.
 
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CABAL, it also didn't say that the steel didn't end up in the warships. I'm not going to say that steel from the WTC did end up in Chinese warships, but I will say that it is a possibility since the steel probably wasn't given an R.I.D. tag and followed all the way from New York to its final product. I personally think all that steel should have stayed in the United States and used for things such as the USS New York which has 24 tons of steel from the World Trade Center built into her bow and keel. Furthermore I think the steel should have been sold as individual pieces with the proceeds going to the families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks and other parts of the steel should have been recycled to be part of the new WTC, the Freedom Tower or whatever it is being called. As far as I am concerned that steel was practically a national landmark on it's own, in my mind that's the equivalent of selling Arlington to some corporation to build a mega mall on top of. But enough of that rant, back to topic.

How many ships does it take to constitute a "blue water navy"? I have always felt that it takes at least 20 years to build a second-class Navy unless there is some sort of revolution in how wars are fought at sea (Like the advent of the Aircraft Carrier which allowed Japan to close the gap much quicker or the submarine which allowed Germany to catch up in WWII and Russia in the post war years.) and probably closer to forty years to build a navy that could stand up against the USN or Royal Navy.
 
Damien435 said:
CABAL, it also didn't say that the steel didn't end up in the warships. I'm not going to say that steel from the WTC did end up in Chinese warships, but I will say that it is a possibility since the steel probably wasn't given an R.I.D. tag and followed all the way from New York to its final product. I personally think all that steel should have stayed in the United States and used for things such as the USS New York which has 24 tons of steel from the World Trade Center built into her bow and keel. Furthermore I think the steel should have been sold as individual pieces with the proceeds going to the families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks and other parts of the steel should have been recycled to be part of the new WTC, the Freedom Tower or whatever it is being called. As far as I am concerned that steel was practically a national landmark on it's own, in my mind that's the equivalent of selling Arlington to some corporation to build a mega mall on top of. But enough of that rant, back to topic.

How many ships does it take to constitute a "blue water navy"? I have always felt that it takes at least 20 years to build a second-class Navy unless there is some sort of revolution in how wars are fought at sea (Like the advent of the Aircraft Carrier which allowed Japan to close the gap much quicker or the submarine which allowed Germany to catch up in WWII and Russia in the post war years.) and probably closer to forty years to build a navy that could stand up against the USN or Royal Navy.
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Who allowed the scrap steel to be sold to China in the first place?

Those buildings were involved in an attack, and then, they fell down, I would think the Federal Government would have taken possession of the scrap steel.
 
My guess would be that the Port Authority, who owned and operated the WTC, sold the scrap metal, or the insurance company to cover their losses, perhaps the city of New York. That we are selling steel to China should not surprise anyone, regardless of what it is used for, we are trading partners, the Chinese are using the dollar to build up their economy, or were, now they might be switching to the Euro.
 
I think the possibility of China having used some steel that may have come from the Twin Towers is a bit of a red herring and nothing to do with the expansion of their blue water Navy.

The supply of steel is only a very minor part in building a ship, and China has more than enough of her own steel of sufficient quality to do the job.
 
How many ships does it take to constitute a "blue water navy"? I have always felt that it takes at least 20 years to build a second-class Navy unless there is some sort of revolution in how wars are fought at sea (Like the advent of the Aircraft Carrier which allowed Japan to close the gap much quicker or the submarine which allowed Germany to catch up in WWII and Russia in the post war years.) and probably closer to forty years to build a navy that could stand up against the USN or Royal Navy.
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To dispute your argument, "first-class","Second-class", or whatever ratings you should put it, classes do not distinguish the Operational capabilities of the Navy. The Japanese Maritime Self Defense are regarded as "first-rate" as you would put it, but they are not a Blue Water Navy because of their operational capabilities. A Blue Water Navy reflects the Navy's capabilities to operate beyond its territorial waters and deploy in far ranging Operations. Currently the PLAN lies within the Green Water Navy criteria however with a addition to a Carrier and an ability to improve its Expeditionary capabilities, the Chinese will have a Blue Water Navy in an estimated time of 2010-2020. The Chinese have been pursuing these capabilities since the 1980's and have quite a long way to go, which fits within your 40 year interval to build a Blue Water Navy. Therefore the Chinese Navy are no exception and should not create sudden surprise among others. The Japanese have done it once by shocking Europe during the Russo-Japanese War which the Japanese demonstrated that it took them a mere 30-40 years from becoming a Wooden navy to a major Naval Power in the Pacific.

Lets look the indicators of a Blue Water Navy in development:
Nuclear Attack Submarines ---- Check. Next Generation Nuclear Subs are in development
Increased Open Water Training ---- Check. Previous military exercises
C4ISR System ---- Check. Is in Development.
ASW Capabilities ---- Check. In development.
Aircraft Carrier ---- Check. In development.
Anti-Air Capabilities ---- Check. In development with Russian Assistance.

Once all of these criteria are completed, add the PLAN as among the few nations who have a Blue Water Navy.
 
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When I say first-class, second-class, etc. it is king of a way of referring to the overall capabilities of a nation's Navy. For instance I could tell you right away that in my opinion the US Navy and British Royal Navy are first-class navies. It's a very ignorant way of referring to the relative strengths and weaknesses of different nation's maritime capability, I admit my focus in the past has always been centered an land warfare and technolgies in armor, infantry, artillery, etc. When it comes to navies and their capabilities, terminologies, etc. I am rather in the blue, so to say. What would be some other countries with "blue water navies?" If I had to take a guess I would say France, Germany, Russia, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, The Netherlands, India and Brazil? I'm just looking for some basis of comparison here.
 
When I say first-class, second-class, etc. it is king of a way of referring to the overall capabilities of a nation's Navy. For instance I could tell you right away that in my opinion the US Navy and British Royal Navy are first-class navies. It's a very ignorant way of referring to the relative strengths and weaknesses of different nation's maritime capability, I admit my focus in the past has always been centered an land warfare and technolgies in armor, infantry, artillery, etc. When it comes to navies and their capabilities, terminologies, etc. I am rather in the blue, so to say. What would be some other countries with "blue water navies?" If I had to take a guess I would say France, Germany, Russia, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, The Netherlands, India and Brazil? I'm just looking for some basis of comparison here.
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Damien435 please don't use the "first-class" term again. No one uses the term "first-class" in any White Paper printed by any Defense Establishment or by any Institution forming a full review of the current or potential capabilities of a foreign Navy.

Want to know which countries have a blue-water navy?
A Blue Water Navies should exist under these conditions:
-Numerous Nuclear Attack Submarines
-Increased Open Water Training
-A robust C4ISR System
-Advanced ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) Capabilities
-Aircraft Carriers
-Advanced Anti-Air Capabilities
-An ability to carry out Sea Faring Operations that includes Replenishment Ships, Oil Tankers, and other support ships

If you like to know which country has a Blue-Water Navy, compile a list of the inventory of each nation you have listed and analyze. If one criteria is missing, it does not meet the requirement.
 
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