India's Army... Part II - Page 6




 
--
Boots
 
February 16th, 2005  
gingerbeard
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajkhalsa
People, can we please not discuss the 1962 war in this thread? Not only is a 40 year old war in a completely different geostrategic enviroment completely irrelevant to the subject (modern day Indian military), it is a very divisive issue where neither Indian nor Chinese will agree upon.

I'd be happy to discuss it at some later point, but in this thread it is only a red herring.

Cheers.


Lemontree,
Glad you can make it
i wish to end this too. just post something that u suppose to post. let's stop this.

let's just listen rather than comparing.

Peace. i hope indians and chinese are fds too.
February 17th, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
yes i agree

but somethings i have to clear out for our indian friends:

the chinese won the 1962 war clearly by strategy, training, equipment and how they were used to the climate in highlands

if china was to plan an indian invasion, then why return the land chinese army had conquerored???

just admit it, its not pretty, but the chiense won by strategy
February 17th, 2005  
lemontree
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AA
just admit it, its not pretty, but the chiense won by strategy
No doubt, and no arguments on that.
I will start a thread on the '62 conflit in the mil history forum, and i hope we use it for comparing notes and not for bashing.
--
Boots
February 17th, 2005  
Peter Pan
 
Can we progress?

As Jerry Lewis said in Nutty Professor to the waiter - Cut the gas and get on with the order!
February 17th, 2005  
rajkhalsa
 
Hi

I'll post my reply in 2 parts since its so damned long


Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerbeard
interesting, but i do not thin india have the strength to deny china without terrorial costs. chinese navy are now quite advance, not to mention its land army are having new tanks the Type 96 and the Type 98G which is said to be one of the world's best.
I agree completely. The Indian army is in no position to capture any significant territory of Chinas, and even if so, only with ruinous cost. Similarly, the PLA cannot do the same for Indian territory. Both armies are deployed in a defensive arraingement on the borders. Any hypothetical war would only possibly involve the exchange of a few kms of border posts or territory here and there.

Quote:
the Chinese have getting the new russian bombers too, the Tu-22M3 and Tu-95 , if u go to the china's army thread the and china's army doctrine, u will know china's army is more up to date than india's.
I highly doubt the PLAAF will operate either the -22 or the -95, despite the offhanded statement eminating from an air force general. I could see the PLANAF operating a Bear-F for ASW, but that's all.

Russia has a policy never to sell strategic weapons to China, and this policy was affirmed when Putin visited India last year.

Quote:
the point is, india's infrastructure cannot repair its own equipment, they need russian assistance, do u think in war time with china or any superpowers, india would be able to do so?
That is patently untrue! With the exception of very few specialized platforms where it wouldn't be economical to have a local support line, not only does the military-industrial complex of India today repair nearly all platforms, but also builds them in the first place.

As I said before, everything after the initial order of foreign defense equipment is locally manufactured down to the nuts and bolts.

Quote:
inida's navy will be supressed by the chinese if they enter chinese territory, the chinese missiles and Kilo subs couls take on even the US carrier fleet. there is recent news where the chinese nuclear subs slip pass US detection in the pacific.
No doubt, as shore-based forces would overpower the IN. However, there's no chance of the IN even wanting to operate off the coast of Shanghai, as it were. In a wartime situation, the farthest the IN will venture would be SE Asia. I had explained in great detail the IN's role and doctrine.

Quote:
but i doubt india have enough to keep away US carrier fleet. also china is right next to india's, so it is not too hard for chinese to invade in a large scale. u got to know what happened in 1962 war.
1962 war is a whole different ballgame, and I won't even go into that in this thread. No country can over power a USN fleet, however, that isn't what I said.

Furthermore, you are forgetting the biggest obsticale to any India-China war: the Himalaya. It makes it out of the question for either country to rush in large quantities of troops or armor. Any India-China war will be mostly platoon- and company-level engagements with arty support.

Quote:
then how come the Brits could countrol india's population?
This also cannot be applied to the modern day. They did this through playing off one kingdom against another in a divided India.

Quote:
i would want to know what does IN have. not trying to insult u or anything, but u havent said wat india has got to keep away the US carrier fleet.
An Orbat of IN ships can be found on several websites through google. Added to this, several missile regiments dedicated to shore defense, entire IAF squadrons tasked with anti-ship roles.

I didn't say that India could keep away a USN fleet (no country can), but that it wouldn't lightly tangle with her.

Quote:
if u r talking about war with neigbours, china's economic development is way ahead india's, also faster economic growth rate compare to india's
I'm not. I'm talking about the ability to secure those strategic resources.

Quote:
chinese have a larger airforce, the normal standards of the chinese planes are better than india's.
Quite incorrect on the second count, and even if so, the PLAAF cannot operate into the middle east or CAR, where her oil resources come from, and even if it could, an airforce alone cannot protect these the free flow of resources.

Quote:
no, india took a long time to react.
It reacted faster and in a significantly greater scale than any nation to rescue and rebuilding efforts -- including countries that had assets deployed to the IOR. By and far the majority of military assistance to the Maldives and Lanka was from India, and even in Indonesia too, until the working group between Australia, US and India delegated that responsibility to the US.

Quote:
but the chinese would have taken air supriority, due to the much larger air force china has.
Bigger, but also less capable platforms. The IAF v. PLAAF is like the NATO v. Warshaw Pact philosophies of quality v. quantity. And even the commitment of a superior number of aircraft by China is debatable, because China cannot compromize pairity with the many other nations that surround it, like Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and the US(USN), and simply cannot send its entire airforce in an attack on India, whereas India can send a hugely significant ammount of resources from its Pakistan front as India has considerable conventional superiority over Pakistan, and especially so in its air force. Added to this, India has a far more solid air defense system than Tibet, and more advanced air defense systems. India also enjoys more AD resources per force than the PLA, especially so in Tibet.

Quote:
u got to realise china's military industry has taken off in an even bigger way, surprising the US. due to economical advantage and the better infrastructure, china would be able to produce mroe weapons and better quality faster than india's.
Yet it has not. For two reasons: comparative advantage, and economics of scale. In some sectors, like R&D, software, computers, composites and materials, etc., India is in a superior position than China. To put simply, these areas are what advanced weapons systems are developed from. India also has the advantage of being able to source advanced components from the best of the entire world: American, Russian, Israeli, French, British, S. African, what have you. This is another reason for a lower overal cost of development compared to China, which has to locally develop all platforms and systems. To the second point, India's economic growth is second only to China's, and for a developing country like both China and India, both with a large, medium-tech army, the associated manufacturing costs of India v. China in any similar weapons system is similar do to the scale of the production. China may economically have a leg up on India in the overall manufacturing capability, but not in strategic capability, where the Indian defense industry more than adaquately can sustain India's produrements, developments and force levels.

Quote:
also as i said before, india needs russia to repairs its weaponry. it shows during a war with china, india would not have enough weapons to fight.
And I have said, that is a patently incorrect misconception.

Quote:
i doubt it, how many officer corps are there? and each officer in the west have university degrees. india have a very low proportion of university graduates. so entering an army of india's size would proof the numbers are very minimal.
India may have a low proportion of graduates compared to the entire population (like China), but it has the biggest (or second biggest) university graduate population in the world. The Indian officer corps also have university-equivilant degrees, and from my experience with friends who are officers in both armies, equal if not superior requirements for admission as an officer in the IA/IAF. Lemontree can explain better, as he himself is a retired IA offcer, and has far more experience on the matter (including interacting with officers from other militaries.)

Quote:
so is the US.
Somewhat true, but not in the level of IA deployments.
February 17th, 2005  
rajkhalsa
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AA
india had some 50 years to develop itself, and look at it now, its industry is good and its military functioning, but the speed of development in her military is still quite slow when averaged out over the 50 years of its stability

i really do see the indian army's strength surpassing france's and even russia's military power, in the future it could happen if no major war occurs
Yes, I agree with you. Internal stability had allowed for a strong military grounding, but it was only after the 1962 war (where the non-violent ideology of the government had allowed the once mighty Indian army to deteriorate into a glorified police force) that the military really grew in strength, both in size, technically and in doctrine. It was only after that war did politics was firmly booted out of Indian military control, and the flourishing of democracy made the noninvolvement of military in political affairs a sacred tenant for the Indian army (which the majority of postcolonial or developing nations didn't have.)

The real growth in the capabilites of the Indian military only started after the real Indian economic growth in the early 1990s, and only really so after 1999 in Kargil. So while averaged out, there was not much growth in ability to time, in the last 15 years, there has been tremendous growth in the last 10 years, and last 5 years in particular.


The next couple posts have to do with the 1962 war. I wont get into detail at all as it will maket this thread more confusing to read, but suffice it to say that in 1962, the Indian army was less than half the size it is now. It was armed with WW2-era weapons against the PLA's latest. In the war itself, its troops were not acclimatized, had literally no supplies, one day's worth of ammunition, unforitifed positions at tactically indefensible positions (but were forced to go there by politicians who had no idea of the ground realities), and in the war were outnumbered 5:1 by crack PLA mountain troops fully supported by artillery and other war materiel. Furthemore, in India's politicians strategic brilliance, the IAF wasn't even allowed to engage the PLA troops.

Again, today is a different scenario altogether.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexybeast
yet just like chinese, they encounter many problems in disgesting those new tech and equipments into its army, it takes time to let supply and maintiance and training system to get to the same level of the "state-of-art" level of those new weapons.. is that right?

and navy, the acquriing of an aircraft carrier makes India's navy a truly blue water one, although India needs more modern destroyers (i dont mean Dehli destroyer is not a good one, it is an awesome boat), and also nuclear subs to protect its air craft carrier during a future global navy mission.
I agree, there as been almost a glut in the last 2 years in terms of modern weapons aquisitions for the Indian army, the 400 pound gorilla of the Indian military. The IAF an to a lesser degree IN have always been at the forefront of technology in the Indian military, and now have become world class unto themselves, but the IA is going to have to overcome a whole lot of low/medium tech inertia to reach the same.

With new firearms, armor, artillery, and all the way down to the soliders kit, and on top of that an altogether whole new military doctrine, its going to be a tough 5-8 years while the IA digests all these new improvements. When the modernization is done, I honestly belive the IA will be neigh unstoppable in a conventional defensive war (like PLA and their modernization schemes), but until then, it will be controlled chaos. THis is why I belive India will not undertake any major war until then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AA
any special units besides the gurka units?? guards units??? shock units??? urbanwarefare units??? field armies????
The Gorkhas are not a special unit. They are a regular infantry regiment. India uses a Britsh-like regimental system in its military, and they are very tradition oriented. The regiments are as follows
Brigade Of The Guards
The Parachute Regiment
The Mechanised Infantry
The Punjab Regiment
The Madras Regiment
The Grenadiers Regiment
The Maratha Light Infantry
The Rajputana Rifles
The Rajput Regiment
The Jat Regiment
The Sikh Regiment
The Sikh Light Infantry
The Dogra Regiment
The Garhwal Rifles
The Kumaon Regiment
The Assam Regiment
The Bihar Regiment
The Mahar Regiment
Jammu & Kashmir Rifles
The Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry
The Naga Regiment
1 Gorkha Rifles
3 Gorkha Rifles
4 Gorkha Rifles
5 Gorkha Rifles
8 Gorkha Rifles
9 Gorkha Rifles
11 Gorkha Rifles
Ladakh Scouts
The regiments very in size and brigades within them vary in specialization.

India has a large and very capable special forces. Ranging from the Paracommando (Special Ops) to NSG (Couter-Terror) to the Marine Commando Force (Marine SOF), etc.

Check out Specialoperations.com for more info about
National Security Guards
MARCOS
Paracommandos

Cheers,
Raj
February 18th, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
honestly i can say if a war broke out between china and india china has more than enough physical attributes as well as strategic advancement

the himilayas is a very good area for mountain warefare, defensive battles and such, it is the impossible barrier for india to invade

china on the other hand, already has militray bases built in tibet, with the new railway system set up, and the mountains to keep for defensive warefare

easily china could strike down the mountain, because the ganges plains is very good for offensives and such

however, india would have an impossible factor to counter, and that is the mountains



anyways, tahts my analysis


military strength and technology wise, china surpasses india's military, both quality and quantity

i dont know the type of training the indians have for officers and leader, but im pretty sure its british oriented

i think in the future war strategy still plays a huge role in the battlefield, and as the nation that relies more on wit and stretegy than actual material, i can say china has an edge in military leadership
February 18th, 2005  
lemontree
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AA
honestly i can say if a war broke out between china and india china has more than enough physical attributes as well as strategic advancement
Give the reasons for your analysis. Please provide orbats of relative forces that can be deployed to back your statement.
Quote:
the himilayas is a very good area for mountain warefare, defensive battles and such, it is the impossible barrier for india to invade
PLA will also face the same problems in those mountains.
Quote:
china on the other hand, already has militray bases built in tibet, with the new railway system set up, and the mountains to keep for defensive warefare
It lacks the air assets to strike Indian locations. The present 14 forward air strips and one air base in Tibet, have primitive shelters for fighters. PLAAF would cease to exist in Tibet after the ist 24 hrs.
Currently Lhasa has one J-7 regiment in Lhasa with about 33-35 fighter aircraft.
Please see the open shelters in Lingshui (Hainan province) airbase, which is a frontline base if a war over Taiwan occurs.


http://www.scramble.nl/cn.htm
February 18th, 2005  
lemontree
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AA
easily china could strike down the mountain, because the ganges plains is very good for offensives and such
AA,
If the PLA can reach the ganges plains it would be very nice, becuase then they would have extended their lines of communication beyond their capacity, and would be chewed up by our para military units, or villagers armed with sticks. The Indian army would have to make the effort. The PLA will be out of ammo and no food, if they reach ganges plains.
Quote:
however, india would have an impossible factor to counter, and that is the mountains
How come?...are you aware of the geography of the area?
Quote:
anyways, tahts my analysis
Seriously how old are you?
February 19th, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
who said a full scale invasion will occur

there is nothing impossible in the world, and so is this

im not judging it by current events, im seeing into the future when china has built a better base in tibet and better communications

lol, if indians nuked or bombed tibet ur gonna be screwed over by tibetness



anyhow, the invasion will occur in a blitzkrieg format, with a very powerful shock armygrope piercing through a weakly defended border area, spliting the armored forces in the hinterland and finish off the encirclement, with field troops( troops that are hardcore but requires less supplies) creating trouble in the countryside and disrupting communications. as son as the intitive is won and some 200 miles invaded, the steam will stop and troops will rest, with positions taken over by reforcements

artillery bombardment: shells will range from he, hefrag and incendiary, accomanied by smoke shells that will comfuse the indian army front guards, use a *chop style artillery barrage that will leave strands of areas unbombarded and parts heavily bomabrded, through these colums advance troops will go through




second phase: troops from paki and chinese troops stationed there is going to be the real force, will start offensive as indian army goes to ganges

offensive will occur and invasion should be easier, once pincer of the paki army will invade to the south and the chinese pincer will take delhi


third phase: marines will land in calcutta, though the supply route of marines is long, they will meet ujp with forces in ganges soon and take over taht area

fourth phase: indian army will likely to counterattack, prepare defensive positions with kursk as a demostration

fifth phase: as soon as indian army is defeated, invade south



dont be offended, im just stating a hypothesis 8)