India and Pakistan - Page 2




 
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Boots
 
February 20th, 2005  
Xion
 
India and Pakistan have faced each other in the battle grounds on four occassions defeating Pakistan on all 4 occassions.

In 1947, 1965, 1971 and 1999 (Kargil Conflict).


First War:
In 1947, Just after 2 Months after the independence of both the nations, Pakistan attacked Kashmir (then a separate Entity), Kashmir then took to Indian side as it was a moderate country. This caused India to retaliate and drive the pakistanis back.

Second War:
In 1965 (Second Indo-Pak War), Operation GIBRALTAR, as the Pakistanis called it, was a brilliant plan. It was the brainchild of Maj. Gen. Akhtar Hussain Mallick, the GOC of 12 Infantry Division in Azad Kashmir area. According to the plan, hundreds of trained Azad Kashmiris would be infiltrated into the Kashmir valley, then recruit locals and incite them to rebel against the Indian Government.
At the time of the rebellion, vital points like the airport and the radio station would be seized and Kashmir would declare its 'Independence' from India. This way Pakistan would get Kashmir into its fold without resorting to major conflict. The plan was bold and daring. and accordingly hundreds of guerrillas infiltrated into Kashmir on August 5th, equipped with arms and explosives and organised to fight on the lines of Mujahid forces. For the plan to succeed, the Pakistanis relied on the support of the local population, and to their dismay the Kashmiri people remained steadfastly loyal to India, and thus the brilliant plan failed.
This snow balled into a full scale war all alone Western Indo-Pak Border and finally on on September 23rd 3:30 am ceasefire was brokered between the two by UN.At the time of the ceasefire India was in possession of about 710 square miles of Pakistani Territory. In turn it had lost 210 square miles of its territory to Pakistan. Most of this was in the Chamb sector.
After the Tashkent Declaration on 10 January 1966, both sides agreed on an immediate exchange of Prisoners of War (POWs) and withdrawal of troops to positions held before August 5th, 1965.



Third War:
In 1971 (Third Indo-Pak War) Liberation of Bangaladesh, Pakistan was originally made up of two distinct and geographically unconnected parts termed West and East Pakistan on the either side of India. Although the Eastern wing of Pakistan was more populous than than the Western one, political power since independence rested with the Western elite. This caused considerable resentment in East Pakistan. The dawn of 1971 saw a great human tragedy unfolding in erstwhile East Pakistan. Entire East Pakistan was in revolt.The Pakistani Army conducted several crackdowns in different parts of East Pakistan, leading to massive loss of civilian life. The details of those horrific massacres, in which defenceless people were trapped and machine-gunned, is part of Bangladeshi (then, East Pakistan) history. Survivors compare it to the Nazi extermination of Jews.This led to the exodus of more than 8 million refugees (more than half of them Hindus) to neighbouring India. West Bengal was the worst affected by the refugee problem and the Indian government was left holding the enormous burden. Repeated appeals by the Indian government failed to elicit any response from the international community and by April 1971, the then Indian Prime Minister, Mrs. Indira Gandhi, decided that the only solution lay in helping Bengali freedom fighters, especially the Mukti Bahini, to liberate East Pakistan, which had already been re-christened Bangladesh by its people.
Pakistan felt it could dissuade India from helping the Mukti Bahini by being provocative. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in East Pakistan took to attacking suspected Mukti Bahini camps located inside Indian territory in the state of West Bengal.Confident that another war would be as much of a stalemate as the 1965 Conflict, the Pakistanis got increasingly bold and finally on 3 December 1971 reacted with a massive co-ordinated air strike on several Indian Air Force stations in the West. At midnight, the Indian Prime Minister Mrs. Indira Gandhi in a broadcast to the nation declared that India was at war with Pakistan.
This again turned out to be a all-out war between India and Pakistan. Finally on Dec 16 The Pakistani forces in East Pakistan have surrendered formally to the Indian Army. The surrender was signaled by the signing of the surrender document by Lt Gen A A K Niazi, the Army Commander of all Pakistani forces in the area. 95,000 Pakistani soliders surrendered and were treated as POWs (later released). India immediately declared East-Pakistan as Bangaladesh a new independent country as per the will of people of East-Pakistan.


The Fourth War:
1999, (Fourth Indo-Pak Low intensity war - Kargil War) The terrain of the Kargil and surrounding regions of the LOC is inhospitable in the best of times. Some of the characteristics of the region are jagged heights of up to 18,000 feet and harsh gusts of wind and temperatures plunging to about -60 degrees Celsius in the winter. There had existed a sort of "gentleman's agreement" between India and Pakistan that the armies of either side will not occupy posts from the 15 September to 15th April of each year. This had been the case since 1977, but in 1999 this agreement was cast aside by the Pakistani army in hopes of trying to gain the upper hand in Kashmir and plunging the Indian suncontinent in brief and limited war and raising the spectre of nuclear war.
The Intruders on the heights were an amalgam of professional soldiers and mercenaries. They included the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 12th battalions of the Pakistan Army’s Northern Light Infantry (NLI). Among them were many Mujaheddin and members of Pakistan's the Special Services Group (SSG). It was initially estimated that there were about 500 to 1,000 intruders occupying the heights but later it is estimated that the actual strength of the intruders may have been about 5,000. The area of intrusion extended in an area of 160km. The Pakistani Army had set up a complex logistical network through which the intruders across the LOC would be well supplied from the bases in POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir). The intruders were also well armed with AK 47 and 56, mortars, artillery, anti aircraft guns, and Stinger missiles.
The Indian Army detected the intrusions between May 3-12. From May 15 - 25, 1999, military operations were planned, troops moved to their attack locations, artillery and other equipment were moved in and the necessary equipment was purchased. Indian Army’s offensive named Operation Vijay was launched on May 26, 1999. Indian troops moved towards Pakistani occupied positions with air cover provided by aircraft and helicopters.
Pakistan issued statements condemning India's counter attack and falsely claiming that the fighters were the mujaheddin and or Kashmiri freedom fighters. Pakistan also falsely claimed that the Line of Control separating the two sides was not clearly defined. This was false as the line of control was clearly delineated by the two sides in 1972. Pakistan tried to use kargil as a way to project the Kashmir conflict as a potential nuclear showdown thereby encouraging international intervention that might favor Pakistan. Similarly, Pakistani leaders visited China, an ardent ally, to shore up support for their cause and simulataneously pressure India. However much of Pakistan's diplomatic overtures failed, despite early sucess. The world saw proof of Pakistani army involvement in Kargil. India likewise tried to use the international media to make its case known. India was sucessful in showing the world that the Line of Control was clearly delineated and both sides possesed copies of the maps. Second, India demonstrated that the Kargil conflict was orchestrated and executed by the Pakistani army working with the Mujaheddin. Indian restraint and limitation to restrict the operations to Kashmir, allayed fears that the conflict would spiral out of control and result in nuclear war. It sucessfully thwarted Pakistani attempts at "nuclear" blackmail. The ultimate triumph of diplomacy occured as Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif travelled to Washington D.C in early July to negotiate a settlement of the conflict. At this time, defeat of the Pakistani occupying forces seemed assured as Indian armed forces had taken back almost all of the peaks in their respective sectors. The only remaining occupied peaks were the ones closest to the Line of Control, where Pakistani artillery fire could provide cover to the invaders. In a negotiated settlement, Pakistan decided to withdraw its troops from the remaining locations in a set time frame.



Thus, India won all the wars.
February 20th, 2005  
SwordFish_13
 
 
Hi,

Quote:
India and Pakistan have faced each other in the battle grounds on four occassions defeating Pakistan on all 4 occassions.
Thats a Very Controversial Statement ............. Both Side claim that they won ............. Though Pakistan Accepts it's defeate in the Bangladesh war ( third war )............. on other 2 Occassion ( First and Second war) Pakistan tooClaim Victory ............ and as you know Though India Advanced form One Fornt occupying 710 square miles of Pakistani Territory., Pakistan too Advanced form Chamba nearly 210 Sq Kilometers and a Cease Fire was Brokered by UN ............. so Both side would like to think they won ( or Tell they People that they won ) ............ It's very hard to Convince Unless one side Accepts Defeate .

And as our Pakistani Friend said Things are Improving no doubt ........... One example is the Cease-Fire accross LOC holding for soo long ........... Lets see how much lonsge it stays ........

Quote:
The British rulers decided to partition the sub-continent on the basis of majority of population of any religion in a province, like a province with Muslims as majority would be acceded to Pakistan and the one with Hindu majority would be acceded to India.
British did not Control all of India there were a Lot Of states Controlled by Regional Rules these states were knows Princly States.........Not Just the Kashmir Ruler but Majority of the Princely States at first hesitated to Merge into any of the two Countries .......... who were later Merged by Force or Diplomace .............. I mean the King's were not too eger to give away their legiourous lives ................ and it was Pakistan who Attacked Kashmir that prompted Hari Singh to run for his life and take shelter in India.

Peace
-=SF_13=-
February 20th, 2005  
Xion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordfish_13
Thats a Very Controversial Statement
I'm dumbstruck at swordfish's post, Never seen anyone more liberal minded than swordfish, I expected a pakistani to say what you've said in your post, but oh well, even after reading my post completely you say that my statement is a very controversial one, I think you should take your time and read it again.

Both don't claim they won ...India actually won all those wars as those facts state....Pakistan on the other hand claims they won all the wars without any facts.... I think we should wait for the Pakistani guys comments , believe me I've seen a few pakis commenting on this issue.
I could comment more on this issue but then forum moderators might say i'm an extremist and ban me.They even claim they won the Kargil battle .So lets not go any deeper into this.

As godofthunder9010 had stated in an earlier thread "Pakistan will be a failed state by 2015: CIA" , the hatred among them against India is so deep that they would never bring upon their own downfall because of the thought of India gaining an advantage.(this trend is changing gradually amongst the educated pakistanis and indians too at the same time)

They will never accept they lost a war against India.

Now, Consdiering India's massive army, one of the top airforces in the world and a good navy, its upto you to decide what conclusion you want to draw.
--
Boots
February 20th, 2005  
Peter Pan
 
I think that Swordfish is stating that Pakistanis would have a different view to the Wars.

While you have given details and statistics.

I think it would be worthwhile to let the readers draw their own conclusions based on the details presented.

In so far as 1971 is concerned, Justice Hamoodur Rehman Report is relevant.
February 20th, 2005  
SwordFish_13
 
 
Hi,

Quote:
China became involved in this region during the 1962 Indo-China war (fought for border settlement), which ended with chinese forces occupying almost 20% of Kashmir territory and defeat of India.
That part of kashmir was ceded to China by Pakistan in 1963 ............. Under the 1963 Sino-Pakistan Pact With a Provision that the final settlement was subject to the final solution of the Kashmir dispute..........

Quote:
I'm dumbstruck at SwordFish's post,
I am a weird Person You know .........

Well what i ment was ......... In war Until one side accepts Defeate it's very hard to Convince them later ..

Apart form that peace was Brokered by UN on First and Second Ocassions before any significant result came.

Bangladesh and Kargil were a Direct defeate .......... defending these defeats now would be a bit hard . ( Got my Point )

Quote:
I think that SwordFish is stating that Pakistanis would have a different view to the Wars.
Exactly My Point .

Quote:
believe me I've seen a few pakis commenting on this issue.
Been there Seen that

Peace
-=SF-13=-
February 20th, 2005  
Xion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBA_PAKI
President Pervaiz Musharraf focuses on making a settlement on the Kashmir dispute that satisfies all the three parties involved (Pakistan, India and Kashmir Administration).
The same person who masterminded the Kargil intrusion.

The same person who planned a coup against Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and declared him a traitor and took control of the pakistani state himself.

The same person who refused to salute the then Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee when he visited Pakistan on a peace initiative.

The same person who says that pakistan is not actually supplying arms to the terrorists but are supporting them morally for their cause.

Wow , what a great person (extremist) to trust upon !
February 20th, 2005  
Peter Pan
 
In so far as Pakistan ceding areas of Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistani-ceded unilaterally Shaksgam and the western corner of Chinese-occupied Aksai China. This is where the strategic Karakoram Pass is situated.
February 20th, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
this is a sad war indeed, a piece of land thats hardly good for any development wutssoever

purely political, this war was a waste in many cases, and to this day many historians calls it an unnessary war
February 20th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AA
this is a sad war indeed, a piece of land thats hardly good for any development wutssoever

purely political, this war was a waste in many cases, and to this day many historians calls it an unnessary war

ummmm doesn't china have a chunk of this disputed territory? so what development is planned for tibet?
February 21st, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
ya well, we would like a piece of the cake in the party too, other wise its not nice of india to shove our border around without kicking some areas in its most vulunerable area