goodoldrebel
Active member
Lee's image is forever tarnished with the biggest blunder of choosing to attack the yankees instead of continuing to defend against northern aggression.
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If only Lee didn't go to Gettysburg
koalaburger
Active member
I think if he had continued flanking the union troops as he moved toward Washington he could have waited until the terrain suited an attack. Giving the enemy the high ground just shows he was believing his own publicity. Hubris brings even the best Generals undone.
goodoldrebel
Active member
Agree, the end result being 50k americans murdered each other and for no strategic purpose.
Today, as one travels to battlefield sites, most have designed tours with a northern spin. If you go to Ft. Sumter for example,(in the heart of the deep south) the tour shows how the north "rescued" the fortificaton. After touring this site, one truly feels that a civilization is "gone with the wind".
It's just bizarre that one cannot get the straight story regardless of whether its politically correct. The federal govt. actually made florida change its state song from Suwanne River. If that's not the epitome of pandering.
The one battlefield I've seen that still reflects accurately the southern perspective is Olustee Battlefield in northern Florida. Also, Judah Benjamin's last residence (Gamble Plantation) being supported by the daughters of the confederacy, is a fresh change from the yankee white washing.
I hope that history at some point will try Sherman (post-mortum) as a war criminal. After all, the acts that his army perpetrated on the non combatant civilian population would truly make him and his army the original nazis.
Remembering Rosewell Ga. (formerly, New Manchester) and what Sherman's army did to those poor women and children of the clothing factory there.
Let's not forget about Grant;'s infamous anti-semetic order 11 kicking all Judaic people out of Paducah, KY.
These facts never get the exposure they deserve in the history books. All we hear about is Andersonville, yet little is mentioned about Ft. Deleware, Camp Douglass and Pt.Lookout.
Today, as one travels to battlefield sites, most have designed tours with a northern spin. If you go to Ft. Sumter for example,(in the heart of the deep south) the tour shows how the north "rescued" the fortificaton. After touring this site, one truly feels that a civilization is "gone with the wind".
It's just bizarre that one cannot get the straight story regardless of whether its politically correct. The federal govt. actually made florida change its state song from Suwanne River. If that's not the epitome of pandering.
The one battlefield I've seen that still reflects accurately the southern perspective is Olustee Battlefield in northern Florida. Also, Judah Benjamin's last residence (Gamble Plantation) being supported by the daughters of the confederacy, is a fresh change from the yankee white washing.
I hope that history at some point will try Sherman (post-mortum) as a war criminal. After all, the acts that his army perpetrated on the non combatant civilian population would truly make him and his army the original nazis.
Remembering Rosewell Ga. (formerly, New Manchester) and what Sherman's army did to those poor women and children of the clothing factory there.
Let's not forget about Grant;'s infamous anti-semetic order 11 kicking all Judaic people out of Paducah, KY.
These facts never get the exposure they deserve in the history books. All we hear about is Andersonville, yet little is mentioned about Ft. Deleware, Camp Douglass and Pt.Lookout.
YankeeSgt2
Active member
You were fools to continue
After losing Gettysburg AND Vicksburg in 2 days. How many Americans were killed in the almost two years it took you to wise up?
After losing Gettysburg AND Vicksburg in 2 days. How many Americans were killed in the almost two years it took you to wise up?
The Other Guy
Spam King
Lee was generally smarter than most confederate generals, however Gettysburg proved to be a disaster in that he attacked with a smaller force. The rest of the Confederate Army found the same problem when they attacked and turned it into a battle of numbers, which the much more populous north would win the longer the war went on.
goodoldrebel, it's said that history is written by the victors, and the War Between The States is no exception. They lost the war, therefore they were wrong, and the fact that any battlefield portrays it from a CSA perspective surprises me; I mean, the secession was, by default in the war's end, a treasonous act. Also, Sherman's actions were controversial but they did exactly what they needed to do, and that was demoralize and destroy the CSA from the inside. It was vicious on a Roman Empire level, but it worked.
goodoldrebel, it's said that history is written by the victors, and the War Between The States is no exception. They lost the war, therefore they were wrong, and the fact that any battlefield portrays it from a CSA perspective surprises me; I mean, the secession was, by default in the war's end, a treasonous act. Also, Sherman's actions were controversial but they did exactly what they needed to do, and that was demoralize and destroy the CSA from the inside. It was vicious on a Roman Empire level, but it worked.
State Govt. passed legal Secession Ordnances, if Treason, why was no one ever tried for it? Fla replaced Suwanee River because it was not P.C. for a white guy to write using what today would be called Ebonics, & use it for the State Song.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
It would not have mattered where or when Lee chose to attack as he was an absolutely lousy General on offense besides the further North he moved the more prone to being cut off and destroyed he became.
Had he stayed at home and chosen defense then perhaps the CSA would have lasted longer but in the end the lack of an industrial base and a massive population deficit made the survival of the CSA an impossibility.
goodoldrebel
Active member
Agree with most of the above replies, although I don't think that the south would have definitely succumbed to the same fate if not for gettysburg. Lee remains a sort of cognitive dissonant figure in that he was probably the greatest american and at the same time because of gettysburg he loses admiration. The saddest day in american history is still 9 april 1865 ---more sad than pearl harbor, 911 etc.
Other Guy-- very well said.
George-- interesting info. about the state song
Other Guy-- very well said.
George-- interesting info. about the state song
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LeEnfield
Active member
It was rather like the Germans in WW2, the Southern Armies were good fighters, but in the finish they were out numbered, out gunned, out generaled and generally ground down.
At this stage of the war it would not have made the slightest difference where Lee had fought the end would have still have been the same.
At this stage of the war it would not have made the slightest difference where Lee had fought the end would have still have been the same.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
In fact I still think Gettysburg was an example of poor leadership by all sides as J.E.B. Stuart completely disappeared at the time he was most needed, Lee and his subordinates seemed to have complete run out of ideas, and Meade basically fell asleep the second the battle was over and let Lee escape when he had ample men and material to destroy him on the North side of the Potomac, possibly the only one to have come out of the battle looking good was General Buford for his delaying actions on the first day of the battle.
(I have no doubt lesser ranked Officers performed well but I am mainly concentrating on senior commanders)
(I have no doubt lesser ranked Officers performed well but I am mainly concentrating on senior commanders)
As Vietnam showed, you can win politicaly instead of militarily. Had Gettysburg been a draw or a Southern win. More importantly(maybe) had Bragg followed up & destroyed the Yankees after Chickamauga & recaptured Tennessee, or Joe Johnston remained in command of the Army of Tennessee, instead of being replaced by Hood, he might have held Sherman in check long enough for Lincoln to lose the 1864 election. Sherman taking Atlanta was a big boost for Lincoln.
goodoldrebel
Active member
Interesting analysis and wouldn't it have been a great achievement if Lee did maneuver into Baltimore, DC etc. It seems that Picket gets trashed too often but we have to remember that he was just following Lee's strategy and was unaware that the rest of that tactic (rear backup) was non-existent.
The bottom line with Lee was that he should have kept doing what he was doing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This idea of gettyburg was it seems a purely idealistic emotion on his part to 'teach the north a lesson and give it a taste of its own medicine'. I really believe that a negotiated peace with favorable southern terms could have been an option if not for gettysburg. The war was extremely unpopular in the north and I think the southern sentiment within the northern civilian population would have had a political impact on the yankee gvt.
The bottom line with Lee was that he should have kept doing what he was doing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This idea of gettyburg was it seems a purely idealistic emotion on his part to 'teach the north a lesson and give it a taste of its own medicine'. I really believe that a negotiated peace with favorable southern terms could have been an option if not for gettysburg. The war was extremely unpopular in the north and I think the southern sentiment within the northern civilian population would have had a political impact on the yankee gvt.
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goodoldrebel
Active member
Agree, but still Lee was ultimately responsible for this carnage. Interesting point about Chickamauga.
Another interesting fact of the Civil War few are aware of is the only military Hebrew cemetary outside Israel is in no other place but Richmond, Va. Within the Hebrew Cemetery is a plot known as the Soldier's Section. This plot contains the graves of 30 Jewish Confederate soldiers who died in or near Richmond. In 1866 the Hebrew Ladies' Memorial Association was formed to care for this section.
My family goes way back in the south but few understand this connection or the fact that there has always been a large southern community. The antibellium north was at times openly hostile to the Judaic community. Judah Benjamin, Abraham Myers etc. are but a number of famous southerners who fought against yankee aggression.
Lee was always appreciative of this fact and sent a letter to the community again a token of recognition. There again I say, Lee being such a great being in all respects, yet, he must take the full heat for the ultimate blunder (gettysburg)
Another interesting fact of the Civil War few are aware of is the only military Hebrew cemetary outside Israel is in no other place but Richmond, Va. Within the Hebrew Cemetery is a plot known as the Soldier's Section. This plot contains the graves of 30 Jewish Confederate soldiers who died in or near Richmond. In 1866 the Hebrew Ladies' Memorial Association was formed to care for this section.
My family goes way back in the south but few understand this connection or the fact that there has always been a large southern community. The antibellium north was at times openly hostile to the Judaic community. Judah Benjamin, Abraham Myers etc. are but a number of famous southerners who fought against yankee aggression.
Lee was always appreciative of this fact and sent a letter to the community again a token of recognition. There again I say, Lee being such a great being in all respects, yet, he must take the full heat for the ultimate blunder (gettysburg)
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03USMC
Active member
Longstreet was sorta of Persona non grata after the war, when the advance was dubbed Picketts charge. His blaming of Lee pretty much cast him outta the Lost Cause, Southern Gallantry club of surviving Generals.
On paper Chancellorsville shouldn't have gone any better than Gettysburg, the odds just cought up @ Gettysburg. It's amazing how many times the ANV should have been crushed, but got out of it.
Longstreet becoming a Republican probably didn't help either!
goodoldrebel
Active member
In the early 1870s after Lee had died, the south sought to shifted blame for the loss of the war from Lee to Longstreet in order to promote the so called "lost cause." The Southern population wanted a scapegoat and Longstreet was a good target because he publicly admitted that the Confederate army's strategies and tactics were flawed.
Actually, it wasn't until July 1 1863 that Lee decided to attack the yankees yet did not decide where until the next morning. Longstreet did not really do much of anything that morning and he must take responsibility for that. Even if he objected to Lee's attack, Longstreet should have been alot busier that morning.
While it is true that Longstreet was openly angry at Lee's orders to attack in spite of his objections, and without doubt Longstreet made mistakes at Gettysburg, look at it this way, Lee should have listened to Longstreet to begin with.
It was Longstreet who told Lee point blank that a direct assault on the yankees would be fatal but Lee wouldn't listen and stubbornly continued to Cemetary Ridge so what could Longstreet do but follow the stupid orders and send Pickett and Hill ahead.
Getting between the yankees and Washington was Longstreet's idea. In the end I think Longstreet's idea would have been the more intelligent move.
Again, its all armchair quarterbacking but the decision for Lee to go to Gettysburg is still considered the biggest mistake in American history.
Actually, it wasn't until July 1 1863 that Lee decided to attack the yankees yet did not decide where until the next morning. Longstreet did not really do much of anything that morning and he must take responsibility for that. Even if he objected to Lee's attack, Longstreet should have been alot busier that morning.
While it is true that Longstreet was openly angry at Lee's orders to attack in spite of his objections, and without doubt Longstreet made mistakes at Gettysburg, look at it this way, Lee should have listened to Longstreet to begin with.
It was Longstreet who told Lee point blank that a direct assault on the yankees would be fatal but Lee wouldn't listen and stubbornly continued to Cemetary Ridge so what could Longstreet do but follow the stupid orders and send Pickett and Hill ahead.
Getting between the yankees and Washington was Longstreet's idea. In the end I think Longstreet's idea would have been the more intelligent move.
Again, its all armchair quarterbacking but the decision for Lee to go to Gettysburg is still considered the biggest mistake in American history.
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