If Obama Wins - Page 2




 
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July 22nd, 2008  
03USMC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
And is that so awful? Soldiers vote dont they? Why is it that people seem to accuse Obama of doing the same things EVERY politician has done since the beginning of history?
Because he is a politician he will say anything to gain the votes. But because he is a politician he'll lie to these people and if elected do something else.

Refer to LeEnfields post.

Screw em all especially sunshine and lollypop do gooders
July 24th, 2008  
Gunner13
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik
A lot of Americans now agree with Obama on Iraq. It's a tramendous waste of money, time and infinitely worse, Iraqi and American lives! Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and the sole reason the US is in there is oil. It's a crystal clear fact in the eyes of the international community. Saying that America is in Iraq for bringing the damned land "freedom, democracy, and hence a better quality of life" is saying that all these years and thousands of lives have been WASTED because nothing, NOTHING of value has been achieved in Iraq that even vaguely resembles a better life for teh average Iraqi. Quite the oppesite, it's become worse, much worse.

Obama's Iraq policy has always made sense and when he becomes the next president, hopefully it'll still be in effect.
I do not know where to begin with this little rant (and rant it is BTW) as you are SO Wrong in SO many places!

1. No one in the Bush Administration, US Armed Forces or Intelligence Community EVER claimed that Sadam Hussein or Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks.

2. If this is all about oil, then why are we buying it on the open market and not taking it directly?? Is that crystal clear enough for you?

3. If OIF is such a tremendous waste of money, time and lives, then why are the remnants of the old Baathist order, AQI and Iran trying so hard to stop us? If we succeed in planting an actual working democratic government in Iraq, we just unhinged the plans of every stupid despot in the region to include Al Qaeda and Osama and they all know it. And, just in case you failed to notice, the Coalition (not just the US) and the elected Government of Iraq, are winning this fight. We are not at the conclusion of this fight by any means, but the old Baathist order, AQI and Iran have lost both their credibility and their here.

I don't think we have wasted anything here and quite a lot has been achieved. Simply because the world media will not report on the majority of the positive things going on in Iraq, does not mean that they are happening. Wouldn't you say that free elections and the absence of a truly evil and murderous dictator is a good thing?

4. Obama has no Iraq policy and it has never made any sense. He has opposed every single successful measure implemented and can't figure out if we are staying or leaving or when that will happen. He is either willing or not willing (he has said both recently) to listen to the council of the soldiers and diplomats on the ground before constructing his policy. I am beginning to think he should change his logo to a pair of flip flops (sandals) since he can't make up his mind on anything.

5. What the international community thinks about most things does not concern people in the US very much, nor should it. Most of that community backed the UNSCR that authorized OIF and then did NOTHING to help. You see this over and over again: lots of talk, but no action and the when the US does something (usually after lots of crying from the international community) all anyone does is complain.

6. It's a long way to the November Elections and anything could happen.
July 25th, 2008  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03USMC
Because he is a politician he will say anything to gain the votes. But because he is a politician he'll lie to these people and if elected do something else.

Refer to LeEnfields post.

Screw em all especially sunshine and lollypop do gooders
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But Again, why are we singling out Obama for this? Isn't McCain doing the exact same thing?
I don't disagree with what you and LeEnfield have said, but it seems disingeuous to accuse OBAMA and put him on a pedestal when every single politician in the history of the world has done precisely the same thing.
If we are just discussing kissing military buttocks in order to win votes I'd say McCain is far guiltier than Obama is, as he is the one who keeps insisting hes the better CnC and playing up his National Security credentials.
Remember also that McCain has been a politican much, much, longer than Obama has. So what whatever is said about counts double against McCain.

Gunner13

1. Your wrong. He did make that claim to the US Congress. Bush Letter to Congress dated 03/21/03
"The use of armed forces against Iraq is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001". [Bush’s Letter to Congress, 3/21/03].

I think thats a pretty clear and totally misleading statement...
2. Iraq has 25% of the entire worlds oil supply, its capacity is second to only Saudi Arabia. You cannot tell me with a straight face that it had nothing to do with oil, even Republicans Alan Greenspan and Henry Kissinger have said it was about oil. However It wasn't about controlling the oil under Iraq's ground, it was about controlling the entire world oil supply by attempting to force it out of OPECs hands. The oil companies did push to have the oil fields privatized but the continued violence and the unexpected high damage to the oil industry made this impossible. The oil companies did make a fortune in rebuilding the industry via Bush no-bid contracts. So yes it was about oil, but more the politics than the actual crude in Iraq itself...

3. First of all the 2003 coalition was a political farce, made up mostly of countries with little or no military significance such as New Genea, Fiji, the Cayman Islands, Afghanistan, and the like. There were only 5 countries willing to contribute troops and really only 2 that were willing to risk combat troops. The rest only sent small support teams of engineers and medics. Today, of those 5 countries only 2 are still there and I wouldnt count on the UK's commitment for too much longer.

We opened a Pandoras box in Iraq. Saddam was bad but he kept another evil (a religous civil war between Sunni and Shiite which could have ingulfed the entire middle East) in check whist he was in power. George Bush Sr and Bill Clinton knew this thats why they tolerated Saddam existence. Bush Jr stupidly and against his father, Jim Baker's, US Military, NATO allies, the UN, and all other sane advice, opened Pandora's box. The result was the mess we have now.

If you think there will be a true-blue democracy in Iraq, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. The same can be said about the so-called elections where only half the country didnt turn up to vote as the Sunni boycotted it. The best you can hope for is another dictator to replace the dictator we tossed out. And that is a BEST CASE scenario. You can talk about the achievements in Iraq all you like, but the fact remains there is exactly ZERO benefit to the American public. The bill is a $600 Billion and 4000 dead, 30,000 wounded, all of which the American taxpayer will have to cover.

4. Here the difference between McCain and Obama. McCain wants to CONTINUE the war in iraq indefinatly. He essentially wants to create permanent military bases within the country like we have in Saudi Arabia. Thats something just about every outside the Republican Party opposes. As long as there is a single US soldier in Iraq the war will go on. The Arabs simply do not like non-muslim armies on their land. They have resisted every invasion since the Roman Empire. Obama wants to the END the war and has offered a plan that gives the Iraqi Government 16 months to take over. Perhaps it makes no sense to you but the Obama Iraq plan has the blessing of the Iraq Government, the Europeans, and 1/2 the Americans population.

5. Oh really? Well the UN has been begging for help in Africa. How many US troops are in Darfur right now? In Sierra Leone? In Zimbabwe? Secondly the UN Security council never authorized the Iraq war. Bush used an old UN treaty from 1990 (Resolution 687) which allowed for military force if a member of the coalition came under attack (not the case) OR of a material breach that required a SECOND UN vote, (which Bush purposely ignored). The overwhelming view and that shared by the Secretary General of the UN was that the invasion of Iraq violated UN charter. So the reason the UN didnt help the US in Iraq was because the US never got UN authorization.

6. For the Presidency yes. But in all truthfullness, McCain isnt doing so well. Hes low on money, he has alienated his base, he is not liked by many within his own party, he has taken many unpopular positions, he looks old, used up (and according to young college Republicans), totally out of touch, and he and his advisors keep saying stupid or hateful things that make him look bad. (Hagee, another anti-Catholic preacher, Gramm). Can McCain still win? Yes. But unless Obama really screws up its not looking good for him. Congress on the other hand is very bleak for the GOP. At the very minimum they will lose two senate seats and a dozen house seats -best case scenario. They are in very serious trouble.

Since 2006 there were 3 special elections, the democrats won ALL of them including a seat in Mississippi that hadnt seen a Democrat since the 1960s. Not a good sign at all...
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July 25th, 2008  
therise21
 
He is being singled out for this because his entire campaign is based on how he is a different choice and how he wants change you can believe in. So when he does the same things that the other politicians are doing it makes them think he is hypocrtitical and wonder where the change he is talking about is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
-----------------------------------------------------------------

But Again, why are we singling out Obama for this? Isn't McCain doing the exact same thing?

I don't disagree with what you and LeEnfield have said, but it seems disingeuous to accuse OBAMA and put him on a pedestal when every single politician in the history of the world has done precisely the same thing.

If we are just discussing kissing military buttocks in order to win votes I'd say McCain is far guiltier than Obama is, as he is the one who keeps insisting hes the better CnC and playing up his National Security credentials.

Remember also that McCain has been a politican much, much, longer than Obama has. So what whatever is said about counts double against McCain.
July 25th, 2008  
MontyB
 
 
So what is he meant to do stay at home and not campaign because others are doing it?

I am pretty sure that when he talks of change he means in style of leadership and isn't eluding to a suicidal style of campaigning.
July 25th, 2008  
AikiRooster
 
 
I think his idea of change is OJ Simpson as Attorney General and other similar boneheaded things.
July 25th, 2008  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therise21
He is being singled out for this because his entire campaign is based on how he is a different choice and how he wants change you can believe in. So when he does the same things that the other politicians are doing it makes them think he is hypocrtitical and wonder where the change he is talking about is.
I fail to see the connection you are making. The question isn't if you trust the platforms, the question is the pandering to get votes.

Troops vote, Obama is running for office. Obama preaches his platform (which happens to be change) in hopes that the troops vote for him. As a voter either believe him and vote for him, or you don't. That simple.

Same deal for McCain.

I see Mccain much more often meeting with troops and military related orgnazations, so if anyones pandering it McCain.
July 25th, 2008  
The Other Guy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AikiRooster
I think his idea of change is OJ Simpson as Attorney General and other similar boneheaded things.
And I think McCain's will ruin what's left of America's self-respect.

It's an opinion.
July 25th, 2008  
Wolf
 
 
You can't really trust any politician these days: Democrat or Republican.
I vote for a reset button!
July 26th, 2008  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
You can't really trust any politician these days: Democrat or Republican.
I vote for a reset button!
Wouldn't go quite that far, there are individuals in both parties that are worth something.
 


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