if Israel attacked Iran, Tehran would "level Tel Aviv and Haifa to the ground." - Page 4




 
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March 26th, 2013  
D.J
 
So what you´re saying is that I´m not welcome here?
March 26th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J
So what you´re saying is that I´m not welcome here?
Not at all,... as a fellow human being I welcome you, but your rather lame attempts at defending the indefensible and generally dragging down those who proudly follow the honorable Profession of Arms, just makes you look,... how can I put it kindly?... "Childish" is a word that springs to mind,. Which if indeed you were a child, could easily be forgiven, but I'm sure that you are most certainly not a child.
March 26th, 2013  
Team Infidel
 
 
Everyone needs to play nice in the same sandbox. I know this is a heated topic, but please try and keep the gloves on...
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March 26th, 2013  
D.J
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Not at all,... as a fellow human being I welcome you, but your rather lame attempts at defending the indefensible and generally dragging down those who proudly follow the honorable Profession of Arms, just makes you look,... how can I put it kindly?... "Childish" is a word that springs to mind,. Which if indeed you were a child, could easily be forgiven, but I'm sure that you are most certainly not a child.
So you doubt my morals because I have been an Israeli officer?
March 26th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J
So you doubt my morals because I have been an Israeli officer?
No,... I couldn't care if you were an Israeli bus driver. I have no "doubts" whatsoever. No more than I would about WWII German forces member who actively and willingly supported the Nazi regime.
In a nutshell, "It's time you grew up and took some responsibility for your actions"

As stated by noted Israeli author Tony Judt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Judt in Haaretz
By the age of 58 a country – like a man – should have achieved a certain maturity. After nearly six decades of existence we know, for good and for bad, who we are, what we have done and how we appear to others, warts and all. We acknowledge, however reluctantly and privately, our mistakes and our shortcomings. And though we still harbor the occasional illusion about ourselves and our prospects, we are wise enough to recognize that these are indeed for the most part just that: illusions. In short, we are adults.
But the State of Israel remains curiously (and among Western-style democracies, uniquely) immature. The social transformations of the country – and its many economic achievements – have not brought the political wisdom that usually accompanies age. Seen from the outside, Israel still comports itself like an adolescent: consumed by a brittle confidence in its own uniqueness; certain that no one “understands” it and everyone is “against” it; full of wounded self-esteem, quick to take offense and quick to give it. Like many adolescents Israel is convinced – and makes a point of aggressively and repeatedly asserting – that it can do as it wishes, that its actions carry no consequences and that it is immortal.

More,... http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2006/05/04/tony-judt-tells-israel-on-its-58th-birthday-act-your-age/

March 27th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J
For many Jews it makes no difference whether you say "I am anti-Israeli or I am anti-Jewish" they do not distinguish!
But to be rather blunt that is their problem as that view can only be held by those who believe all Jews are Israeli or that Israel speaks for all Jews when the reality is that there many Jews who share views about Israel not dissimilar to Spike or myself.

I think your problem is that this forum is not a particularly emotive one so throwing the usual "anti-Semitic" lines around doesn't work with people who who can differentiate between anti-Israeli and anti-Semetic.
March 27th, 2013  
hamidreza
 
But I think most of Jews are pro-Israel not anti-Israel or neutral. Maybe I am wrong. But is there any site or somethings to show us what percent of 13-14 millions Jews are pro-Israel? I see them very mysterious about this matter. It couldn't be difficult when most of them live in advanced countries and there is not any problem if they tell their opinions ( or maybe there is! I don't know)
March 27th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
I'm not going to draw this out any more than absolutely necessary as I realise that it is getting right away from the subject of the thread, but I feel that in this particular case my stance with D.J. could be explained somewhat better.

I never cease to be amazed at the number of Israelis, Zionists and Zionist supporters, whom for the most part (disregarding those who fall into categories such as religious demagogues and political nutcases), I imagine are in every other sense normal rational people, who are quite willing to go on sites like this and attempt to defend the actions of Israel in view of the staggering amount of evidence showing them to have been knowingly deceitful, murderous, self centred, callous and uncaring as to international laws and conventions, totally without any regard for anyone but themselves.

I can never help but wonder, "is it blind nationalism, or the result of past censorship which now has them refusing to believe the plainly obvious truth"? To my way of thinking they fall into exactly the same category as those whom they so rightly despise, Holocaust deniers and outright "Jew baiters", people who for reasons known only to themselves appear to live in an alternate reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamidreza
But I think most of Jews are pro-Israel not anti-Israel or neutral. Maybe I am wrong. But is there any site or somethings to show us what percent of 13-14 millions Jews are pro-Israel? I see them very mysterious about this matter. It couldn't be difficult when most of them live in advanced countries and there is not any problem if they tell their opinions ( or maybe there is! I don't know)
I think it could be safely said that the majority of Jews in Israel are pro-Israel, after all that is the reason most of them went there.

However, there have always been opponents to many of Israel's policies and I think it would also be safe to say that this group of people has grown greatly with the advent of uncensored news regarding the actions of Israel against the Palestinian people. I know for a fact that many Jews were horrified when confronted with the truth, finding out that they had been lied to for so long also helped to bolster the numbers of those in opposition to Israel's policies.

I think you will find that there are far more pro-Palestinian, Jewish groups than you could ever find pro-Israeli organisations among the Palestinian people. Some of the better known ones being organisations like B'Tselem amd Jews for Justice in Palestine. When I say this, I totally disregard those poor Palestinians who are dragged in front of the TV cameras by Israel to state that they support Israel views, as it is painfully obvious that these comments are only being made under extreme duress.

On top of all this the Israelis have opposition from many of their own orthodox religious groups who point out that their own Scriptures clearly state that the aims of Zionism and the aims of Judaism are almost mutually exclusive.
March 27th, 2013  
Cartman
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Honestly, this just shows your pretty low level of knowledge. Do you know why each one of these countries said that at least? Do you understand what their situation was back then? If you did, you probably wouldn't say that.

Speaking of the dog who barks,

"The Sinai is now Israel and it is to be settled by Israelis." - Golda Meir. <----it's not Israel neither is it settled by Israelis.

"The 1967 war was the last of wars...after which there is nothing left for the Arabs but to plead for mercy."- Moshe Dayan <----It wasn't the last of all wars and there was something the Arabs could do besides pleading for mercy.

That's of course besides the famous quote for Moshe Dayan that we needed American and Soviet technologies combined so we can take down the sand barrier although it ended up falling using water.
you are right, what golda said and moshe said was wrong. but their ego talked for them. your country's efforts in erasing us from the map have failed so miserably and now you forget that if we didnt trade sinai for peace, it was still ours by now. the only reason sinai is an egyption territory is because the peace agreement.
March 27th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartman
you are right, what golda said and moshe said was wrong. but their ego talked for them. your country's efforts in erasing us from the map have failed so miserably and now you forget that if we didnt trade sinai for peace, it was still ours by now. the only reason sinai is an egyption territory is because the peace agreement.
Just for interests sake people holding all the cards rarely fold because they have won too much.

I am prepared to bet that if Israel thought it could have kept the Sinai it would have.