If Hitler died early? Germany vs Allies - Page 4




 
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March 14th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
The thing is though, were the darkest aspects of Nazi Germany widely known in 1943 or 1944?

I think Germany was dealt with as it was by the Allies out of sheer fright and panic. After all, for a 'long' time it looked like Germany couldn't lose.
Good point Doppleganger! The holocaust and other stuff has to be looked at differently; that is, from the context of 1942, etc. A couple of points:

(1) The atrocities were only rumour during the war. These rumours included Red Army excesses and general descriptions of brutality on the eastern front. Remember that strategic bombing (British-style) aimed at killing civilians. The war was a tough one.

(2) Did the Allies treat Soviet-Russia as a real country? Remarkably enough, the western governments got over their aversion for communism in 1941 and worked together with Stalin. Now, everyone knew about the Gulags, etc. These realizations proved difficult during the Nuremberg trials where the Anglo-Saxon powers had to ignore countless Soviet atrocities. The point is that they did it. They once again looked the other way.

(3) Eastern Europe was overrun by the Soviets. Talk to Hungarians or Rumanians or Bulgarians or Poles, etc. The Soviet military did not behave well. And, they never left. The Soviet Union annexed these regions and the west sat back. The war was technically fought to ensure Polish freedom. Chamberlain declared war on Hitler to save Poland. In 1945, Poland became a Soviet zone, hundreds of thousands of Poles died in an orgy of rape and plunder, and 40 years of slavery followed. The only thing that you can learn from this is that communist excesses were somehow acceptable to the west.

An hypothesis: The western Allied leaders were frightened of nazism/fascism partly because of the ideology's appeal in their countries. That is hard for us to understand today. The far right in those days (Chomsky makes this point well) represented a real assault on democracy. Coupled with German industrial/technological success, Hitler represented a real problem.

However, normal geopolitical issues also played a role. That is, typical British/French/American thinkers did not care about eastern Europe...unless it fell to German control. When the Soviets invaded Finland, Rumania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland between 1939 and 1941, there was no real reaction. The same was true after 1945.

Was WWII really fought to save the Poles? Hardly.

Ollie Garchy
March 16th, 2006  
Ashes
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Garchy
Why does everyone think that Germany was completely responsible for prolonging the war? Think of these points:

(1) Roosevelt proclaimed the policy of unconditional surrender at Casablanca. That means that the Germans had to accept total defeat, the eradication of all government, the end of sovereignty and a total occupation. Roosevelt's policy removed the chances for negotiation.

(2) Stalin wanted to dominate eastern/central Europe. His postwar conceptions centered on the complete neutralization of German power. Stalin destroyed East Prussia and turned central Germany (East Germany as it became known) into a slave state. The Germans could see this coming by 1944.

A German surrender in 1943 or 1944 was unthinkable in part because of Allied policy. Did the Allies treat Germany as a real country with normal and legitimate policies? Of course not. This problem goes back to the WWI era and is only partly related to nazism and Hitler.

Ollie Garchy
It wouldn't have mattered if the Allies offered the chance of negotiations or not, Hitler would have spat on them.
He said before the war, quote..... "Even if we could not conquer, we should drag half the world into destruction with us, and leave no one to triumph over Germany .... we shall never capitulate, no, never! We may be destroyed, but if we are we shall drag the world with us .... a world in flames."
And near the finish he said If the Wehrmacht was too spineless, or the people lacked the will to resist, then they weren't worthy of becoming the master race under his leadership, and all Germany could crash in flames. He sacked Guderian [again] for mentioning they should negotiate.

Germany devastated Europe twice in 30 years, would anyone want to give them terms, and chance a third disaster, and to have to negotiate
with a psychotic liar, or with his sycophant henchmen like Ribbentrop or Goering, is enough to make you shudder, there is only one reason why the war dragged on as long as it did, and it wasn't because of Allied policy, it was because of one man, Adolf Hitler.



On Stalins complete neutralization of German power, well, who in their right mind wouldn't want to neutralize German power after the war.

As for ''slave state....
I'm not sure, but I think East Germany had the highest GDP of any Eastern block country, including the U.S.S.R. or close to it.

I think Germany got off comparitivly lightly, both in the West and the East, after the war.
U.S, Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. wanted to turn Germany into an agricultural economy, and the Soviets could hardly have been blamed for really turning Germany into one great concentration camp.
But the Western powers realised they needed Germany as a bulwark against the Soviets, and the Soviets eventually went the same route.
March 16th, 2006  
Ashes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
The thing is though, were the darkest aspects of Nazi Germany widely known in 1943 or 1944?

I think Germany was dealt with as it was by the Allies out of sheer fright and panic. After all, for a 'long' time it looked like Germany couldn't lose.


Here's a short list, beginning in '41. i'll leave it to you to make up your mind.

October 11 1941-- "New York Times" story reports on massacres of thousands of Jews in Galicia.

March 1942-- Jewish aid organization reports that eyewitness accounts indicate the Nazis have already massacred 240,000 Jews in the Ukraine alone.
May 4 -- Gassing of more than one million Jews begins at Auschwitz.
May -- The Jewish Labor Bund in Poland compiles summary of verified massacres and transmits it to the Polish government-in-exile in London.
June 29 -- At a press conference in London, the World Jewish Congress estimates that the Nazis have already killed over a million Jews.
July 21 -- Twenty thousand people gather in New York's Madison Square Garden to protest the Nazi atrocities.
August -- News of Nazi plan to annihilate Jews of Europe reaches Gerhart Riegner, the World Jewish Congress representative in Switzerland.
August 8 -- Gerhart Riegner informs U.S. consulate in Geneva about a Nazi plan to murder the Jews of Europe.
August 11 -- U.S. Legation in Switzerland passes information received from Gerhart Riegner to State Department regarding Nazi plan to kill all European Jews.
August 21 -- President Roosevelt warns Axis powers that the perpetrators of war crimes would be tried after their defeat and face "fearful retribution."
August 28 -- After receiving details of Gerhart Reigner's report regarding the Nazi plan to annihilate European Jews, a British politician cables the information to American Rabbi Stephen Wise.
September 2 -- Rabbi Stephen Wise contacts State Department about Nazi plan to kill all European Jews. Wise agrees to remain silent until the information is confirmed.
November 24 -- State Department confirms report of Nazi plans to slaughter the Jews in Europe. Rabbi Stephen Wise holds press conference.
November 24 -- For the first time, reports of Jews being methodically murdered at Auschwitz reach outside world.
November -- A Jewish member of the Polish government informs the press that one million Polish Jews have perished since the war began.
December 8 -- Jewish leaders meet with President Roosevelt and hand him a 20-page summary of the Holocaust.
December17 -- The Allies issue a statement condemning "in the strongest possible terms this bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination."
December 19 -- The United Nations Information Office in New York releases a report that authenticates the accounts of the Holocaust.


1943 January -- State Department receives information from Switzerland that discloses that 6,000 Jews a day are being killed at one location in Poland.
February 10 -- State Department asks legation in Switzerland to discontinue sending reports about the mass murder of Jews to private persons in the U.S.
March 9 -- The Committee for a Jewish Army presents a pageant in New York called "We Will Never Die" in memory of the murdered Jews of Europe.
April 20 -- State Department receives message from Gerhart Riegner outlining plan to rescue Rumanian and French Jews.
July 20 - 25 -- The Emergency Conference to Save the Jewish People of Europe takes place in New York City. 1500 people attend.
July -- Jan Karski, a courier for the Polish resistance, meets with FDR, giving him an eyewitness account of the Holocaust.
August -- A report received by Jewish leaders in the U.S. advises that the death toll of European Jews has reached four million.
November 9 -- Identical resolutions are introduced into the House and Senate calling on the president to create a government rescue agency.

1944 January 13 -- Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. receives "Report to the Secretary on the Acquiescence of This Government in the Murder of the Jews."
And continues on through '44.
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March 16th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
My response to ASHES' rather "hardcore" post:

(1)"It wouldn't have mattered if the Allies offered the chance of negotiations or not, Hitler would have spat on them".

This is counterfactual argumentation. I am sorry if you do not know what this means, but it is always a dangerous road to travel. You are merely supposing something based on a particular bias. The evidence of the 1930s suggests, however, that the Allies could have negotiated with Hitler as long as they accepted the core of his demands. This is called negotiation is diplomatic circles. Munich is an example.

(2) "the Wehrmacht was too spineless, or the people lacked the will to resist" (Hitler said this? When?)

I am supposing that you "agree" with the adjusted Hitler paraphrase. This line of argumentation is utterly biased. I would follow Satan himself if another government bombed and killed my family or raped and killed my mother and sisters. I am sorry, but the argument works both ways. The Russian people generally resisted Hitler's killing squads for good reason. The German people generally resisted Stalin's hordes for equally good reasons. It is absurd to argue something like the following: "My government is guilty of great evil, and I will therefore sacrifice my life and that of my family to make amends". The fair treatment of German civilians was a primary condition for peace negotiations. The Wehrmacht was not "spineless". German soldiers sacrificed themselves and displayed a heroism unmatched in the modern age. The majority did so -- irregardless of what the "History Channel" reports -- to protect their families.

(3) "Germany devastated Europe twice in 30 years, would anyone want to give them terms, and chance a third disaster, and to have to negotiate
with a psychotic liar, or with his sycophant henchmen like Ribbentrop or Goering, is enough to make you shudder, there is only one reason why the war dragged on as long as it did, and it wasn't because of Allied policy, it was because of one man, Adolf Hitler.""

You are linking WWI and WWII and trying to create a stereotype that never existed. It seems that you agree with Hess: "Hitler ist Deutschland. Deutschland ist Hitler". The extremism of your views is quite pronounced. Are you trying to tell me something or get personal? Why the hatred, dude?

(4) "On Stalins complete neutralization of German power, well, who in their right mind wouldn't want to neutralize German power after the war."

The Americans did not. The boys of OMGUS, supported by Truman and the State Department, fought against the other Allies and helped restore the prewar western German economic position in Europe. The Marshall Plan, based mainly on American financial support and German industrial production, brought about the greatest boom period in western history. Sorry but west Germany was never deindustrialized or demilitarized.

(5) "I'm not sure, but I think East Germany had the highest GDP of any Eastern block country, including the U.S.S.R. or close to it."

East Germany is now Polish. The GDP of Poland is in this case hardly important. The Soviet Zone in Germany was however a complete economic disaster. Artificially high GDP figures do not back your case. Nor do the economic assessments of the old DDR after 1990.

(6) "U.S, Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. wanted to turn Germany into an agricultural economy, and the Soviets could hardly have been blamed for really turning Germany into one great concentration camp."

Truman stated the following about Morgenthau: "He does not know the difference between shit and apple butter". He then fired Morgenthau in mid-1945. I am sorry, but the American hardliners fell from grace for a number of reasons that include basic realities and humanitarian concerns. I do not have time to go into detail, but every modern economy needs the fruits of industry to survive.

Ollie Garchy
March 16th, 2006  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes
Here's a short list, beginning in '41. i'll leave it to you to make up your mind.

October 11 1941-- "New York Times" story reports on massacres of thousands of Jews in Galicia.

March 1942-- Jewish aid organization reports that eyewitness accounts indicate the Nazis have already massacred 240,000 Jews in the Ukraine alone.
May 4 -- Gassing of more than one million Jews begins at Auschwitz.
May -- The Jewish Labor Bund in Poland compiles summary of verified massacres and transmits it to the Polish government-in-exile in London.
June 29 -- At a press conference in London, the World Jewish Congress estimates that the Nazis have already killed over a million Jews.
July 21 -- Twenty thousand people gather in New York's Madison Square Garden to protest the Nazi atrocities.
August -- News of Nazi plan to annihilate Jews of Europe reaches Gerhart Riegner, the World Jewish Congress representative in Switzerland.
August 8 -- Gerhart Riegner informs U.S. consulate in Geneva about a Nazi plan to murder the Jews of Europe.
August 11 -- U.S. Legation in Switzerland passes information received from Gerhart Riegner to State Department regarding Nazi plan to kill all European Jews.
August 21 -- President Roosevelt warns Axis powers that the perpetrators of war crimes would be tried after their defeat and face "fearful retribution."
August 28 -- After receiving details of Gerhart Reigner's report regarding the Nazi plan to annihilate European Jews, a British politician cables the information to American Rabbi Stephen Wise.
September 2 -- Rabbi Stephen Wise contacts State Department about Nazi plan to kill all European Jews. Wise agrees to remain silent until the information is confirmed.
November 24 -- State Department confirms report of Nazi plans to slaughter the Jews in Europe. Rabbi Stephen Wise holds press conference.
November 24 -- For the first time, reports of Jews being methodically murdered at Auschwitz reach outside world.
November -- A Jewish member of the Polish government informs the press that one million Polish Jews have perished since the war began.
December 8 -- Jewish leaders meet with President Roosevelt and hand him a 20-page summary of the Holocaust.
December17 -- The Allies issue a statement condemning "in the strongest possible terms this bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination."
December 19 -- The United Nations Information Office in New York releases a report that authenticates the accounts of the Holocaust.


1943 January -- State Department receives information from Switzerland that discloses that 6,000 Jews a day are being killed at one location in Poland.
February 10 -- State Department asks legation in Switzerland to discontinue sending reports about the mass murder of Jews to private persons in the U.S.
March 9 -- The Committee for a Jewish Army presents a pageant in New York called "We Will Never Die" in memory of the murdered Jews of Europe.
April 20 -- State Department receives message from Gerhart Riegner outlining plan to rescue Rumanian and French Jews.
July 20 - 25 -- The Emergency Conference to Save the Jewish People of Europe takes place in New York City. 1500 people attend.
July -- Jan Karski, a courier for the Polish resistance, meets with FDR, giving him an eyewitness account of the Holocaust.
August -- A report received by Jewish leaders in the U.S. advises that the death toll of European Jews has reached four million.
November 9 -- Identical resolutions are introduced into the House and Senate calling on the president to create a government rescue agency.

1944 January 13 -- Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. receives "Report to the Secretary on the Acquiescence of This Government in the Murder of the Jews."
And continues on through '44.
Hi Ashes. In the absence of any links I've done a bit of brief searching to try and find out how widely reported these events were. From what I can gather the reporting of these events were not given that much priority by the Western Media. Often, atrocities commited against the Jews by Nazi Germany were relegated to the back pages. Arthur Szyk, the famous artist (and Jew) put it: "They treat us as a pornographical subject. You cannot discuss it in polite society." It seems to me as that, although there was plenty of noise being made by various groups on the plight of the European Jews, the Western Media was plainly not that interested in their fate.

The Western Allies did not seem that interested either. It took until July 20, 1943, when the 'Emergency Conference to Save the Jewish People of Europe' took place, for it to be reported in any meaningful way. It took until January, 1944 when FDR established the 'War Refugee Board', for any firm, tangible action to be taken by the Western Allies.

All this brings me to my point, that although the Jewish atrocities were more widely known than I had suspected, it took a long time for the powers that be to do anything about it. I deduce from this that the real reason for battling Germany had not much to do with Nazi Germany's abhorent Jewish policy, and a lot more to do with Germany's political and economic regional dominance. Not to mention the possible threat to Democracy/Monarchism from Fascism, which was becoming increasingly popular in Europe and which threatened the status-quo of the old Great Powers. And thus we come to Communism. If, for sake of argument, we imagine that the Soviet Union had been in the centre of Europe and not Germany, there was a good chance that the main enemy might have been Stalin and not Hitler.

Sources:

http://www.wymaninstitute.org/articl...-emergency.php

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocau...ine/index.html
March 18th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Another good argument, Doppleganger. I particularly enjoy the refreshing way you absorb good points in an objective fashion. Keep up the good work!

Ollie Garchy
March 18th, 2006  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Garchy
Another good argument, Doppleganger. I particularly enjoy the refreshing way you absorb good points in an objective fashion. Keep up the good work!

Ollie Garchy
Thanks. I do my best to try and be objective wherever possible. Your posts have been very interesting and logical. Good to have you aboard and I hope you stick around.