Humanitarian Crisis

1)Moral reasons : Israel is the only democracy in the ME
:The fall of Israel will result in the extermination of all the other Jews

2)Political reasons : there is a strong Israel lobby in the US

3)Strategical reasons : the enemies of Israel are also the enemies of the US,but not the enemies of Obama ;
: the fall of Israel will result in a nuclear war with dozens of million deaths.
:after the fall of Israel,it will be the turn of the US .

But Obama does not care : if to accomplish his liberal dream,Israel must disappear, so be it .

Why should we care about a democracy in the ME? Isn't Turkey a democracy also?

The US doesn't need anything from the ME. I'm positive that if we stopped meddling there more than half of our problems would go away in regards to radical Islam. Now Europe might have something to worry about...which in my mind, would be a good incentive for them to pick up either the mission, or the tab. It's time that continental Europe start pulling their weight when it comes defense and military operations. Many many many Americans are losing interest in what is going on over there...we have more than enough problems at home.
 
Turkey is no democracy .

Someone as Obama,his mouth always full about democracy and human rights,is at the same time abandoning the only democracy in the ME (Israel)in favour of non democratic muslim countries AND he is trying to impose on the ME his insane liberal fallacies,something which everyone knows, will fail.
 
The US doesn't need anything from the ME. I'm positive that if we stopped meddling there more than half of our problems would go away in regards to radical Islam. .


You are wrong : running away will not prevent 9/11 bis,and this time with nuclear weapons .

The fact is that the radical Muslims want to destroy the US .
 
You are wrong : running away will not prevent 9/11 bis,and this time with nuclear weapons .

The fact is that the radical Muslims want to destroy the US .


Smoke and mirror fear mongering.

Oh, I guess Turkey doesn't count in your definition of a democracy...KIND OF LIKE ISRAEL!


The fact is that they can't get along long enough to do anything. This is a Muslim problem that needs to be handled by Muslims. It is time for the moderate Muslims to start stomping down on the radicals. If we keep intervening and helping dictators and governments that oppress them...including Israel, we are only supplying them with the motivation and unifying factors that keep the moderates from reigning in their crazies. We can't hold them accountable while we drone strike them into oblivion on questionable intelligence. We supply them with that form of terror, then why oh why are we surprised when they respond in kind with carbombs?

This stuff isn't rocket science. They don't hate our "freedom"...they hate our foreign policy. And what nuclear weapons? How do you think they are going to hit us with a nuke huh? What means of delivery do they have to do it? You're living in a fantasy if you believe that even a nuclear armed non state actor would be able to easily set off a nuke. Can you imagine what the response would be to that? You must think these people are stupid or something.

However, if you're so concerned about it then why don't you go and get your like minded continental Europeans together and force your government to do something about it. You know, spend a couple thousand Belgian lives in Mesopotamia or Central Asia while spending hundreds of billions of dollars for questionable reasons under questionable circumstances. Or, if you're so convicted about it, why don't you reimburse the US for providing you your safety since you're in such danger.

Didn't think so. You'd rather us, the Brits, Aussies, and Canadians to foot the bill in bodies and money. Like I said before, it is about time Continental Europe start paying their dues if you are expecting intervention in unwinnable wars.
 
Smoke and mirror fear mongering.

Oh, I guess Turkey doesn't count in your definition of a democracy...KIND OF LIKE ISRAEL!


The fact is that they can't get along long enough to do anything. This is a Muslim problem that needs to be handled by Muslims. It is time for the moderate Muslims to start stomping down on the radicals. If we keep intervening and helping dictators and governments that oppress them...including Israel, we are only supplying them with the motivation and unifying factors that keep the moderates from reigning in their crazies. We can't hold them accountable while we drone strike them into oblivion on questionable intelligence. We supply them with that form of terror, then why oh why are we surprised when they respond in kind with carbombs?

This stuff isn't rocket science. They don't hate our "freedom"...they hate our foreign policy. And what nuclear weapons? How do you think they are going to hit us with a nuke huh? What means of delivery do they have to do it? You're living in a fantasy if you believe that even a nuclear armed non state actor would be able to easily set off a nuke. Can you imagine what the response would be to that? You must think these people are stupid or something.

However, if you're so concerned about it then why don't you go and get your like minded continental Europeans together and force your government to do something about it. You know, spend a couple thousand Belgian lives in Mesopotamia or Central Asia while spending hundreds of billions of dollars for questionable reasons under questionable circumstances. Or, if you're so convicted about it, why don't you reimburse the US for providing you your safety since you're in such danger.

Didn't think so. You'd rather us, the Brits, Aussies, and Canadians to foot the bill in bodies and money. Like I said before, it is about time Continental Europe start paying their dues if you are expecting intervention in unwinnable wars.

Isn’t this a contradiction? In general the strong (the radicals) will over power the weaker (being the rest). With this being the case it’s unlikely that moderate Muslims will come to power. They are not willing to kill all who stand in their way and blow themselves up. There are exception Tunisia, Turkey, Lebanon but they tend to be the exception.

Do you think after a showing like 9-11, that ISIS, AL-Qaeda or any number of extremist organizations wouldn’t jump at the opportunity to set off an atomic bomb in the US? The delivery would be on a small scale say suitcase sized bomb.

Full scale involvement - occupation, etc. seems to only give the US a black eye, this I agree with. As for airstrikes, drones and small scale special forces operations for humanitarian or strategic interest needs are required I can see.

It is doughtful that Belgium has the military hardware needed to take on such missions. However with the present state of affairs they should move in that direction.
 
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Isn’t this a contradiction? In general the strong (the radicals) will over power the weaker (being the rest). With this being the case it’s unlikely that moderate Muslims will come to power. They are not willing to kill all who stand in their way and blow themselves up. There are exception Tunisia, Turkey, Lebanon but they tend to be the exception.

Do you think after a showing like 9-11, that ISIS, AL-Qaeda or any number of extremist organizations wouldn’t jump at the opportunity to set off an atomic bomb in the US? The delivery would be on a small scale say suitcase sized bomb.

Full scale involvement - occupation, etc. seems to only give the US a black eye, this I agree with. As for airstrikes, drones and small scale special forces operations for humanitarian or strategic interest needs are required I can see.

It is doughtful that Belgium has the military hardware needed to take on such missions. However with the present state of affairs they should move in that direction.

The strong ARE NOT the radicals. The moderates represent 90% of the Muslim population and they are ones that need to fight these radicals off.

Sure they would jump at the opportunity to set off a nuke in the US. However, I don't think we are the first on their list to do so, especially if we stop meddling in their affairs. A simple desire to do something does not mean they can do it. Miniaturizing a nuclear weapon to suitcase size is an extremely difficult task and easily traceable. Then you have to get it to where you want to hit. It is far more likely they would hit Israel or Europe due to less travel restrictions, much more access, and less chance of security forces intervention. They know the second they have their hands on a nuke, it is a matter of time before they are tracked down and the nuke nullified.

I also don't think they are so stupid as to not realize them successfully getting one off would galvanize the ENTIRE WORLD against them and the cumulative military efforts of every major power would be working to exterminate them. Further more, Islamic governments would also be forced to start cracking down on them in detail because undoubtedly, western governments would threaten and follow through with direct military intervention. Which we all know is no good for anyone.

The radicals getting a nuke off would be the worst thing they can do PERIOD. It is likely one of the very few single acts that will force the hand of the hit country and her allies to retaliate with ridiculously overwhelming force. Which would likely mean the culpable groups extermination.

It is almost impossible for nation states to aquire nuclear weapons anymore let alone non nation states. And again, simply having a nuke doesnt mean you can effectively deliver it. Fortunately for us, every practical way they could deliver it is easily interceptable. Every non practicle way of deliver is not easily concealed.

In other words, anyone who really thinks nukes are a realistic option for radical Islam is very gullible and anyone spreading this fallacy is fear mongering.

My comment about footing the butchers bill was also directed at the rest of western europe as well. Except of course our greatest of REAL allies over there, the Brits and the Danes.
 
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As is with many countries the 10% controls the majority. Of course the majority want to live out there lives in peace under a moderate regime. Do you see it happening in the history of the region? Ideally the moderate majority (average folks) would win out but this doesn't have a way of happening in the ME.

Did I say it was easy concerning an atomic attack, no! But not outside of the realm of possibilities. It would likely come from a an ex Soviet state or perhaps Iran in days to come or? These people have a lot of money. Of course it would be difficult to get it within our borders, but remember how much contraband (drugs and weapons) does make into the US. I speak of possibilities vs. probabilities, not fear mongering.
 
The "good" voices within the Islamic communities really need to take the stand to fight the extremists. They need to be heard and seen. There is one country that have achieved this in a really good way and that is the US. There is rather low amount of extremists originated from the US, there was one but he's gone now in the American citizen reduction program implemented by the US government. (watch the daily news on Comedy Central)

One part of me thinks we shall leave the Middle East alone and letting them figure things out. Think about how the Western world got its society, but the consequences would be severe. I think we need to help these refugees and viewing them all as terrorists tell more about peoples paranoia than the threat from terrorism.
 
One part of me thinks we shall leave the Middle East alone and letting them figure things out. Think about how the Western world got its society, but the consequences would be severe. I think we need to help these refugees and viewing them all as terrorists tell more about peoples paranoia than the threat from terrorism.

Helping refugees is fine but allowing them to relocate around the world is not the answer, I remain convinced that aid should be going in to refugee camps around Syria to keep them there and the west has to be looking at a concrete plan to stabilise Syria even if that means bringing in the Iranians and Russians.

The problem with that is that we are in fact still trying to play political games and the desire to solve the issue is not really there.
 
Smoke and mirror fear mongering.

Oh, I guess Turkey doesn't count in your definition of a democracy...KIND OF LIKE ISRAEL!


The fact is that they can't get along long enough to do anything. This is a Muslim problem that needs to be handled by Muslims. It is time for the moderate Muslims to start stomping down on the radicals. If we keep intervening and helping dictators and governments that oppress them...including Israel, we are only supplying them with the motivation and unifying factors that keep the moderates from reigning in their crazies. We can't hold them accountable while we drone strike them into oblivion on questionable intelligence. We supply them with that form of terror, then why oh why are we surprised when they respond in kind with carbombs?

This stuff isn't rocket science. They don't hate our "freedom"...they hate our foreign policy. And what nuclear weapons? How do you think they are going to hit us with a nuke huh? What means of delivery do they have to do it? You're living in a fantasy if you believe that even a nuclear armed non state actor would be able to easily set off a nuke. Can you imagine what the response would be to that? You must think these people are stupid or something.

However, if you're so concerned about it then why don't you go and get your like minded continental Europeans together and force your government to do something about it. You know, spend a couple thousand Belgian lives in Mesopotamia or Central Asia while spending hundreds of billions of dollars for questionable reasons under questionable circumstances. Or, if you're so convicted about it, why don't you reimburse the US for providing you your safety since you're in such danger.

Didn't think so. You'd rather us, the Brits, Aussies, and Canadians to foot the bill in bodies and money. Like I said before, it is about time Continental Europe start paying their dues if you are expecting intervention in unwinnable wars.

Continental Europe has no longer armed forces neither has it any money .Belgian armed forces are 25000 ,and only 1 or 2 batallions are operational .

But the US situation is not better : the army has only 400000 men .

The war in Syria is not unwinnable : strong air attacks will suffice:air attacks as in WWII :if the Allies could destroy the German cities,they can destroy ISIS.

But,sadly enough,it is a pipe dream : the present POTUS never will agree : he will never give orders that could result in the death of a lot of Muslims .
 
Other points :

Turkey is ruled by an Islamist,enemy of the West and of Israel .

Moderate Muslims ?:lol:You still fail to understand that the ME is not the US : there are NO moderate Muslims :they all hate Israel and the West .

After 9/11 they had the opportunity to prove that they are moderate ,by demonstrating against Al-Qada and by supporting the US ,they demonstrated ... to show their joy .
 
Continental Europe has no longer armed forces neither has it any money .Belgian armed forces are 25000 ,and only 1 or 2 batallions are operational .

But the US situation is not better : the army has only 400000 men .

The war in Syria is not unwinnable : strong air attacks will suffice:air attacks as in WWII :if the Allies could destroy the German cities,they can destroy ISIS.

But,sadly enough,it is a pipe dream : the present POTUS never will agree : he will never give orders that could result in the death of a lot of Muslims .

Umm I hope this isnt news to you since you have been fairly active in the WW2 thread but the "enemy" isn't going to show up as a horde on horse back with 200,000 infantry and a bunch of elephants, that pretty much died withthe last Iranian agression in 480BC which oddly enough seems to be about where your thinking stopped on this one.

Lets look at ISIS for example they are apparently the biggest threat out there and they claim 200,000 strong where as the CIA claim they are maybe 35,000 strong other numbers I have seen put them around 80,000 but lets assume they are not making things up and they are 200,000 they lack professionalism, they lack a ready supply of heavy weapons, they lack any meaningful communications systems and logistics capability and most of all they lack secure allies all the things a modern army and nation has.

Therefore I fully expect that should this "horde" come steaming out of the desert on their Toyota Camel 4x4 even your 25,000 Belgians would make short work of them.

Outside that I would argue your thinking is outdated at the very least and that modern nations are no longer looking at wars on a long term nation v nation scale but rather short regional wars against insurgencies and oddly enough to defeat terrorism at home you don't need an army you need a stable political system and a content populace and to defeat terrorism abroad you use far smaller numbers of troops.

Now to upset the Americans a little (somewhat unintentionally) but it is American thinking that is out of sync with the way the world is going they spend trillions on a military to defend a nation that is geographically unattackable on a scale that requires a military the size of the US therefore it is geared toward force projection in a world that no longer needs it consequently US foreign policy is geared towards creating an enemy in order to justify its military spending.

No offense guys.
:)
 
they lack a ready supply of heavy weapons.

I will just address this statement. ISIS does indeed possess heavy weapons Abrams tanks, heavy artillery, rocket launchers, Combat ready Humvees to name a few. These were either obtained at the expense of the retreating Iraqi army or purchased via the black market with their oil money.
 
Other points : Moderate Muslims ?:lol:You still fail to understand that the ME is not the US : there are NO moderate Muslims :they all hate Israel and the West.

I think it would be an exaggeration to say their are no moderate regimes or countries in the ME, Tunisia, Morocco, Lebanon, perhaps Jordon some of the gulf states are moderate. However they do tend to be the exception.
 
I will just address this statement. ISIS does indeed possess heavy weapons Abrams tanks, heavy artillery, rocket launchers, Combat ready Humvees to name a few. These were either obtained at the expense of the retreating Iraqi army or purchased via the black market with their oil money.

I think it would be a stretch to say that they could bring enough of those weapons to bare to be effective against any of Europes military forces though.

It is one thing to have a supply of captured equipment and quite another to be able to maintain and supply the quantities needed to fight an offensive war against a trained and armed nation.
 
I think it would be a stretch to say that they could bring enough of those weapons to bare to be effective against any of Europes military forces though.

It is one thing to have a supply of captured equipment and quite another to be able to maintain and supply the quantities needed to fight an offensive war against a trained and armed nation.

Like many 3rd world nations and subversive groups possessing military hardware they often do not use them to there utmost efficiency. However the fact remains they have the weaponry and have used it to their advantage against the Kurds and Shite Muslims. It is not logical to speak about them fighting a well armed well trained western power because no such power is currently at war with ISIS.
As for Russia they may step up their aid to Assad a long time ally, but it's very unlikely they will become directly involved in any terrestrial conflict. I don't see any other Eurasian power doing so on a large scale either. Iran is protecting their interesting and preventing the subversives from spilling over into their territory with limit military assistance.
 
As for Russia they may step up their aid to Assad a long time ally, but it's very unlikely they will become directly involved in any terrestrial conflict. I don't see any other Eurasian power doing so on a large scale either. Iran is protecting their interesting and preventing the subversives from spilling over into their territory with limit military assistance.

Really?

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-is-upping-military-intervention-in-syria-2015-9?IR=T

Sounds to me like they are not far from getting involved.
 
I think it would be an exaggeration to say their are no moderate regimes or countries in the ME, Tunisia, Morocco, Lebanon, perhaps Jordon some of the gulf states are moderate. However they do tend to be the exception.


I did not say that there were no moderate regimes,but that there were no moderate Muslims : it was Erdogan who said that a moderate Islam did not exist .

Not hindered by any knowledge,western journalist are transposing western notions as left wing,right wing, moderate,extremist,conservative,etc, to the ME where they have no sense at all : Shiites are not left and Sunnites are no right .

Some Muslims are proposing to hang adulterous women and others propose to stone them,but that does not mean that the former are moderate and the others extremists.
 
I did not say that there were no moderate regimes,but that there were no moderate Muslims : it was Erdogan who said that a moderate Islam did not exist .

Not hindered by any knowledge,western journalist are transposing western notions as left wing,right wing, moderate,extremist,conservative,etc, to the ME where they have no sense at all : Shiites are not left and Sunnites are no right .

Some Muslims are proposing to hang adulterous women and others propose to stone them,but that does not mean that the former are moderate and the others extremists.

Both military and missionary friends of mine who have been there, They state that many of the people living in these countries are just average people trying to make a living and have no desire to get involved with the extremist. Unfortunately it's often the extremist that get all the headlines. This information comes to me from people who have spent time in Iraq, Iran Afghanistan and Chechnya. I am in no way disagreeing with the fact that dangerous radical elements exist in many - most ME countries. However one cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater.
 
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