Ahh,, Ethnicity, look it up. Ethnicity is a catchall phrase with little bearing on this debate.

Ethnicity is related to Culture and as such covers almost any group. Those who speak the same language or share a set of beliefs can be said to be of the same ethnicity.

None of which means that Jews are any more than a religion, because of the reasons shown in Judaism 101 part of which is quoted below. http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Are Jews a Race?

In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.
But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.
Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).

Okay.... I going to put in my ten cents and then eject from this crazy train.

Israel is a sovereign nation. As such she has certain rights and responsibilities. Some of those rights are the right to rule over her lands as she sees fit. Some of the responsibilities are that she must protect her citizenry from attacks.

The question on whether the creation of Israel was right or wrong is a moot point. Israel is here today and we can't change the past. As for how Israel was created as a nation; some violence was part of it. But guess what.... one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It all depends on who writes the history books. In the USA, we didn't become a country by singing peace and joy. We rioted, fought, and killed British citizens and personnel.

The Palestinians that fled their lands during the last couple of conflicts lost those lands. During the war of 1967 and 1973 they were told by the warring Arab states that they would get their lands back, etc... well, they didn't and life's a b%tch.

The current course of action that the Palestinians and Israel's neighbors are taking are wrong. All of the surrounding say that they support the Palestinians but they don't want them in their own countries. Those Arabs nations use the Palestinians as a chess piece in the game they play with Israel. Sucks for the Palestinians. The majority simply want a good life. But what's strange is this hatred towards the Jews and Israelis. The majority of the Arab and Muslim world (they are two different things that do mix) want to wipe Jews and Israelis off the face of the Earth.... Israel won't allow that so they'll do what is needed.

I stand with Israel for a number of reasons.

1. They have the right to defend themselves. If someone lobs bombs into cities, kill random civilians, and simply cause acts of terrorism day in and day out then I will not shed a tear for what the Israelis do in defense and revenge.

2. The Palestinians have a right to live but they need to understand that they were never a nation. They were always a conquered people. If they want independence from their current rulers (Israel) then they need to come to the table as honorable people and not go back on every deal they make.

3. The Israelis are not enslaving Palestinians and having them build giant building with whips going at them day in night. The Palestinians make it sound like they are being herded into death camps and forced to die. What about their political masters that have stolen from them? Yasser Arafat didn't die a poor man in France. He stole from those that he claimed to support and fight for.... The Palestinians need to understand that no one will do anything for you. YOU MUST DO IT YOURSELF!

4. Israel is the closet thing over there to a stable nation with an actual government that's for the people to a degree. Unlike the Theocratic Despotic Regimes that litter the Middle East. Sorry but I don't stand with Royalty, Dictators, or Theocratic hellholes like Iran.

5. The Israelis while a Jewish State are pretty secular to a degree. I don't see them banning Bibles or Korans nor do I see them stringing up gay people in public like Iran or stoning women for walking out in public without a hijab or talking to another man other then her husband/father/brother.

When the Arab world wants to join the rest of the civilized societies in this dirt ball we call Earth then I will give them the respect. But until then.... Israel is my choice out there. When the Arab World removes the royal families, dictators, and theocratic regimes from their nations and have those replaced with a democratic republic form of government that respects the rights of the citizenry (both men & women along with those of different religions, sexual habits, or ethnic background) then I will support them. When they educate their fellow citizenry with the knowledge of the real world and not the hate spewed crap that says that they are the way they are because of Israel or American or the West but because of the lack of education, the ignorance, and the thievery of their leaders then I will stand with them.

Peace in the Middle East will only come with the majority of the population is educated and they realize that they're in the spot they're in because of the despotic leaders they have and not the Jews. Israel would love nothing more then to be left alone and allowed to expand within her boarders.

Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm

Okay.... I going to put in my ten cents and then eject from this crazy train.

All I can say to that is, "If you are just going to "hit and run", at least get a few of your facts right.

(1) If you occupy the land of another without their permission, you are not a defender, you are the oppressor, and the oppressed have every right to defend themselves against that oppressor. e.g. The French Marquis against the Germans. No one said anything about their tactics??

(2)Any like minded group of people can be a Nation (not that it has anything to do with this debate)

"Nation" From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, and/or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up

So in fact the Palestinians are a nation as they share a common heritage, language and expectations.

(3) The Israelis are stealing the land of innocent civilians, and what the owners actually wish to do with that land is none of the Israelis business. Also those Palestinians who were driven off their land in 1948 have never been allowed to return without giving up the right to all of their property. They are therefore forced to remain in the refugee camps as the countries where they are located do not want them either.

I could go on, and on,... but the remainder of your diatribe is largely just your opinion and has absolutely no bearing on the facts. Don't even start on who went back on their word, or I will start on things like this,...

Israel was only accepted into the United Nations on condition that it accept the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees. Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations (General Assembly Resolution 273of May 11, 1949 ) requires Israel to comply with General Assembly Resolution 194of December 11, 1948 and Israel stated it agreed to comply with this resolution.

A very interesting discussion. There are many good arguments and it is very instructive for me to follow these posts.



Just a side note.

When you talk about Jews as a nation, we must remember that the word "nation" should not be understood in the modern sense but in the old sense as a group of people with a common history. It is more correct to say we are of the same family, we are all children of Israel, ie. we are descendants of the Patriarch Jacob, or Israel as he comes to be known as later.

When are you jew? In principle, only when your mother is a Jew. It therefore has nothing to say that you have converted to Judaism. So in a way you could say that being a Jew is a form of nationality or citizenship. But it must still be understood in the older sense of the word "nation"

Again, thank you.
Or "Rav todot"

Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm

Peace in the Middle East will only come with the majority of the population is educated and they realize that they're in the spot they're in because of the despotic leaders they have and not the Jews. Israel would love nothing more then to be left alone and allowed to expand within her boarders.

Thank you. This is the only way things will become peaceful there. Not making Palestine state, not moving Israel, not letting the Palestines rule over the Israel, but only education. Considering these surrounding nations lack education, I see them as the ones encroaching upon Israel.

We can only hope that the citizens of those countries topple their government and establish democratic state. Any other action taken can be backwards in results.

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

Thank you. This is the only way things will become peaceful there. Not making Palestine state, not moving Israel, not letting the Palestines rule over the Israel, but only education. Considering these surrounding nations lack education, I see them as the ones encroaching upon Israel.

We can only hope that the citizens of those countries topple their government and establish democratic state. Any other action taken can be backwards in results.

Your memory is very short, WWII was fought over Germany and Japan's expansionist ideas. They too would have loved to have just been just left alone to keep conquering more territory, are you trying to insinuate that this war occured because the Axis or Allies were uneducated?

If Canada successfully invaded the US, I guess that because US citizens are considered educated, you would just accept it? You are clearly delusional, it is absolutely nothing to do with education.

Being "uneducated" has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether you will accept an invader stealing your land.

Originally Posted by benaakatz

The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‎‎ ISO 259-3 Yhudim Israeli pronunciation [jehu'dim]), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East.

it's quite simple really.

I am an ashkenazi Jew, that is my ethnicity. I am not a german or russian or pole.

you are...dead wrong...

Congratulations, you are among the majority of jews today, despite centuries of opression and attempted extermination in an almost industrial scale.
Ashkenazim does represent the majority today, but what about the Sephardim, Krymchacks, Subbotniks, Falashims, or the Bene Israel jews?

Frankly, I've got some serious problems when it comes to define an ethnicity there.

And as the Israelites that the Romans drove into the Dispora was probably rather semittic of appearance, where does the blond jews come from???

Oh, and before you start fueling up and pull the "anti-semittic" card on me...
I aknowledge the fact that the state of Israel is a fact, and that it has to remain so.
It's just that I disagree on the politics, the boundaries, and the outright propaganda we see in that area today.

As a sidenote here it could be mentioned that Israel and the USA is strongly oposing palestinian attempts to be recognized as a nation-like entity and to have a seat in the UN.

Why do you think USA choose to block those attempts by a veto time and time again?

Originally Posted by senojekips

Your memory is very short, WWII was fought over Germany and Japan's expansionist ideas. They too would have loved to have just been just left alone to keep conquering more territory, are you trying to insinuate that this war occured because the Axis or Allies were uneducated?

If Canada successfully invaded the US, I guess that because US citizens are considered educated, you would just accept it? You are clearly delusional, it is absolutely nothing to do with education.

Being "uneducated" has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether you will accept an invader stealing your land.

Nay, but given a proper education, instead of having islamist "scholars" telling them what may be truth or not would give the palestinian children a possibility to draw their own conclutions, and maybe get rid of the war-mongers who's controling them today.

As long as they keep letting the extremists go on with their senseless attacks on Israel they will be on the loosing side, simply because the Israelis can just point at them and say: "Look for yourself, I told you!"

Originally Posted by 84RFK

Nay, but given a proper education, instead of having islamist "scholars" telling them what may be truth or not would give the palestinian children a possibility to draw their own conclutions, and maybe get rid of the war-mongers who's controling them today.

As long as they keep letting the extremists go on with their senseless attacks on Israel they will be on the loosing side, simply because the Israelis can just point at them and say: "Look for yourself, I told you!"

I think that you highly over rate the input of Islamist scholars. Would you need a priest or minister of your religion, to explain to you, that having an invader steal your land is not what you want?

I'm an atheist, but I'm damned sure I wouldn't allow an invader to just take my country unopposed. In this case, religion or lack of education is an excuse against people doing what is completely normal.

In time of war our religious leaders tell us that we are doing the right thing too, and we generally accept it,... does that mean that we are poorly educated? No,... all it is, is religious groups riding the wave of popular opinion.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Your memory is very short, WWII was fought over Germany and Japan's expansionist ideas. They too would have loved to have just been just left alone to keep conquering more territory, are you trying to insinuate that this war occured because the Axis or Allies were uneducated?

If Canada successfully invaded the US, I guess that because US citizens are considered educated, you would just accept it? You are clearly delusional, it is absolutely nothing to do with education.

Being "uneducated" has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether you will accept an invader stealing your land.

No, WW2 occured because of stupidity on the Allies part and the deperation of the Germans. Japan just saw themselves as a master race and that is the reason they wanted to expand (lack of education maybe on Japans part?).

When I said uneducated I was refering to the other nations in the region who wants Israel gone so bad. I was trying to say that when democracy prevails then the future may be peaceful as Anti-Israel shouts will decrease.

As for your question; yes. If a country was to successfully take over my country, I would not fight it afterwards depending on the conditions. If they were rulers as China, I would fight without question, it depends which would be beneficial.

Like I said before, when the Palestinians as a whole denounce terrorist actions, then and only then can there be any chance of a path for peace/Palestinian state.