Originally Posted by MontyB

The problem now is one of realistic outcomes though and reality is that Israel is there and right or wrong 5 million people are not going anywhere so any solution will have to begin with an equitable coexistance process in other words statehood for the Palestinians, long term I would prefer to see this progress like the reunification of Germany into a single democratic secular state but until both sides can grasp tolerance that is a long way off.

As for creating a state out of the USA, I am not sure why the Yanks need to pay for a cockup by Britain and France.

White South Africa "was there" also, but in the end common sense prevailed as they (the Whites) realised that their problems were only going to get worse. The situation is almost identical in Palestine with a fast growing Palestinian population and dissatisfaction only getting worse as time goes on. Not to mention the fact that since many of Israels atrocities have been uncovered, and the more recent ones so well documented, sympathy for the Palestinian cause is gaining ground internationally. Ten years or so ago, I was a fervent supporter of Israel,... but only because I had no idea of what was going on.

Eventually the Western world will wake up that this problem is the root cause of 99% of all our International terrorism problems, with it's enormous costs both socially and economically, and they will turn on Israel. So, the sooner the Israelis start addressing the problem in a genuine manner, the easier it is going to be for all concerned.

The fact is, that the Palestinians will not accept the forced occupation of their land, and in the circumstances that is an entirely acceptable view. Furthermore, this occupation has inflamed the Arab world and Muslims in particular, who see it as a religious problem as well as ethnic.

I think the Israelis are under the misapprehension that if they just ignore world opinion, the problem will just go away. I think that they are badly mistaken.

Yet you do not seem to have a solution that does not simply transfer the problem to some other part of the world, you are dealing with millions of people whether they are Israeli or Palestinian at this point is immaterial.

What's the plan dump Israelis on Europe?
Maybe dump the Palestinians on the Arab world?

Either way you are going to end up pissing people off so the only realistic option is to find a solution to the situation in place now I have no doubt we can sit here pointing the finger at who is responsible and who is worse but what exactly will this solve?

Now based on the argument that these two groups can not currently live together and we cant move them all we can do is find a working fix and in my opinion that is initially a 2 state one with the hope that in the long term common sense and a bit of self determination will allow for a 1 state long term fix (Yes I know it is a very very long shot but who knows what a 50 year lull in killing may achieve and in the end this battle is just because each side believes in a different fairy tale).

However I am prepared to accept there are other solutions out there so if you have one by all means put up for thought.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Yet you do not seem to have a solution that does not simply transfer the problem to some other part of the world, you are dealing with millions of people whether they are Israeli or Palestinian at this point is immaterial.

What's the plan dump Israelis on Europe?
Maybe dump the Palestinians on the Arab world?

Either way you are going to end up pissing people off so the only realistic option is to find a solution to the situation in place now I have no doubt we can sit here pointing the finger at who is responsible and who is worse but what exactly will this solve?

Now based on the argument that these two groups can not currently live together and we cant move them all we can do is find a working fix and in my opinion that is initially a 2 state one with the hope that in the long term common sense and a bit of self determination will allow for a 1 state long term fix (Yes I know it is a very very long shot but who knows what a 50 year lull in killing may achieve and in the end this battle is just because each side believes in a different fairy tale).

However I am prepared to accept there are other solutions out there so if you have one by all means put up for thought.

Your attitude exactly that of those who led to the position where we are now. For once we must do what is morally right, nothing less will even begin to solve the problem, in fact it will just add to the injustice that has already occurred and further inflame the attitudes of all concerned. The whole thing started because someone pissed off someone else, and this is the problem that will have to be solved to overcome our dilemma. As I said it was done in South Africa, and it works, it's far from perfect but even those worst affected realise that it was the only solution. In fact, we are already aware of this, but no one wants to be the person to say it. Too many Political red faces, admitting that we have again been supporting the wrong side and doing it for all the wrong reasons. (Self interest)

If you don't start with those who are responsible, why bother starting at all, as you know that you are not even trying to resolve the problem? It's just another slap in the face for those who were initially wronged.

Firstly Israel must be made to see that they cannot just ride roughshod over the Palestinians, not to mention world opinion. There are many ways that a real start could be made on this. Withdraw all forms of support, impose an embargo on all strategic, civil and financial aid. Demand that those who have entered under the "Right of Return" go back where they came from. Have all Israeli war Criminals and those suspected of war crimes made to face the ICJ. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea,...

We do all these type of things to other pariah states, what exactly is the reason why we can't or won't do it with Israel,... It comes back to self interest again, doesn't it?

Ultimately a South African type solution must come about and control handed back to the Palestinians. The Israelis will have to pull their heads in and come to a working agreement with the Palis.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Your attitude exactly that of those who led to the position where we are now. For once we must do what is morally right, nothing less will even begin to solve the problem, in fact it will just add to the injustice that has already occurred and further inflame the attitudes of all concerned. The whole thing started because someone pissed off someone else, and this is the problem that will have to be solved to overcome our dilemma. As I said it was done in South Africa, and it works, it's far from perfect but even those worst affected realise that it was the only solution. In fact, we are already aware of this, but no one wants to be the person to say it. Too many Political red faces, admitting that we have again been supporting the wrong side and doing it for all the wrong reasons. (Self interest)

If you don't start with those who are responsible, why bother starting at all, as you know that you are not even trying to resolve the problem? It's just another slap in the face for those who were initially wronged.

Firstly Israel must be made to see that they cannot just ride roughshod over the Palestinians, not to mention world opinion. There are many ways that a real start could be made on this. Withdraw all forms of support, impose an embargo on all strategic, civil and financial aid. Demand that those who have entered under the "Right of Return" go back where they came from. Have all Israeli war Criminals and those suspected of war crimes made to face the ICJ. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea,...

We do all these type of things to other pariah states, what exactly is the reason why we can't or won't do it with Israel,... It comes back to self interest again, doesn't it?

Ultimately a South African type solution must come about and control handed back to the Palestinians. The Israelis will have to pull their heads in and come to a working agreement with the Palis.

The problem is not just Israel but also the United States.

The US like to portray itself as a neutral party in this problem but everyone knows that's a farce. 5 Billion in military aid per year, 6 Billion in Economic aid, shared intelligence information, the threat of military intervention, complete immunity in the UN, and a complete political whitewash both in Washington DC and in the US Media. You cant be anymore 1-sided than the US is in regards to Israel. No other country in the world gets a bigger sweetheart deal.

As long as the US shields Israel, Israel will continue to act exactly as it pleases. You all watch, if the US were to quit protecting Israel the Middle East problem would resolve itself right quick.

Your argument would be fine if we could turn the clock back 100 years but we can't so we have to find a solution that does not swap one bunch of destitute refugees with another.

As for the South African comparison its not going to fly due to the level of hostility between the two parties.

Firstly Israel must be made to see that they cannot just ride roughshod over the Palestinians, not to mention world opinion.

Which is exactly what giving the Palestinians a state does, it gives them equality on the world stage to Israel and it affords them some level of protection from Israel but it also means they will have to abide by the rules governing nations regarding their neighbours as well.

Now the fact is that Israel/Palestine is to small an area to have two fully functioning states so the reality is that at some point they will have to stop the idiocy and work together or perish together but at the very least they can do this at their own pace and on equal terms which to me is the ground work for long term peace.

As for the US in this scenario I am not sure that really matters given the US's deteriorating economic status and its declining stature in world affairs, there will always be support there for Israel but it does not prevent them also supporting countries like Egypt I have few doubts that they would offer assistance to a Palestinian state once it is in place.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Your argument would be fine if we could turn the clock back 100 years but we can't so we have to find a solution that does not swap one bunch of destitute refugees with another.

As for the South African comparison its not going to fly due to the level of hostility between the two parties.

You mean that there was not a similar amount of hostility between the Blacks and Whites in south Africa?

'Fraid you got that wrong. The only difference was, that the blacks in SA never had wealthy supporters to arm them and give moral support.

If the Israelis become refugees, it will be no different to all those South Africans who left and migrated to places like Australia. I worked with one on the Port Adelaide tugs, and he was the happiest "refugee" I've ever seen. Two of his married children have chosen to remain and although the lifestyles of all concerned has changed somewhat, they are all quite happy. There's no reason why the same couldn't happen in Palestine. My son worked in SA after the transition, based in Hoedspruit, as a walking safari gun bearer and anti poaching officer. He worked for Whites, and with, mixed Black and White workers, there was no no sign of hostility at all.



And no,... he's the one without his hand across the muzzle of the .458 Magnum.

It would certainly be far preferable to the direction that we are headed in now.

There will be no need to force repatriation of anyone, those who are not happy with the new arrangements will leave of their own accord, as is the case in South Africa.

Let's just face it, the state of Israel is there, and it has proven that it does intend to stay there.
So there's no use discussing how to get rid of Israel or the Israelis, they had the oportunity to get a free country on the African coast, or in the South-America somewhere, but they insisted on the Middle-East.
Why?
The answer is simple: Religion.

Most of the Palestinians who lived in that region before WW I was rather relaxed about religious matters, and their jewish neighbours, their concern was to grow crops and support their families.
Then in 1947 they were thrown into big world politics, and we all know what happened.

The conflict as we see it today is still a conflict over land, but it's fueled by religion.
Maybe the only solution to the problem is to seize control over Jerusalem and have some international entity governing it as a free city/free state, whatever.

The different solutions mentioned in this thread is doomed to fail if we don't get a proper answer to the state of Jerusalem in the future, or else they will still continue to fight over that pile of bricks untill they've all bleed out.
More or less like we europeans did in the days of the crusades.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Your argument would be fine if we could turn the clock back 100 years but we can't so we have to find a solution that does not swap one bunch of destitute refugees with another.

As for the South African comparison its not going to fly due to the level of hostility between the two parties.



Which is exactly what giving the Palestinians a state does, it gives them equality on the world stage to Israel and it affords them some level of protection from Israel but it also means they will have to abide by the rules governing nations regarding their neighbours as well.

Now the fact is that Israel/Palestine is to small an area to have two fully functioning states so the reality is that at some point they will have to stop the idiocy and work together or perish together but at the very least they can do this at their own pace and on equal terms which to me is the ground work for long term peace.

As for the US in this scenario I am not sure that really matters given the US's deteriorating economic status and its declining stature in world affairs, there will always be support there for Israel but it does not prevent them also supporting countries like Egypt I have few doubts that they would offer assistance to a Palestinian state once it is in place.

Trust me, if there was a total economic apocalypse and the US Treasury only had $1 left, you can be sure the Israeli Lobby would make sure that single dollar would be handed over to Israel. Groups like AIPAC are there to insure that the US always supports Israel no matter what.

On a related subject, anyone see the news today? The Israelis seemed to have seriously pissed off another one of their few remaining friends in the world.

It just goes to show you the incredible arrogance of the current Israeli government. Can someone tell me what exactly is the benefit of angering the Turks? The Turks are mostly Muslim, but they have little love for the Arab countries. If the Israelis are dumb enough to bait Turkey into a naval skirmish then they will deserve whatever they get.

The Turks are not some unarmed disenfranchised goat-herders throwing rocks on the West Bank, nor are they likely going to tolerate a USS Liberty situation (ask the Greeks, Armenians and Kurds on that one)! Not only can Israel count on them shooting back, they are likely to shoot first if they are provoked hard enough.

Israel is playing with fire here...

Nah the Turkish thing is just a storm in a tea cup as there is no real opportunity for it to escalate not to mention the US will play the blocking roll on any agression from either side as it needs to keep in the good books of both parties.

I am actually with 13 on this one.

Why not give them Hollywood for example, could even rename it hoolywood to accomodate..
The military aid could sieze and the countries could cooperate in more productive manners.
With that cooperations budget they could´ve cured cancer a long time ago..

Give current Israel to Palestine.

Done deal.