How and when will Europe recover from it's decline??

A Can of Man

A Can of Man

Je suis aware
This is a carry over from a topic from "Can anyone surpass America in invention."
This involves Europe's power as a whole, so it involves their military capabilities as well.

Right now some points we made were:
- Europe's "worker friendly" system is simply not working. It's leading to brain drain and it's too company unfriendly and often worker unfriendly.
- Europe's going to have to make drastic changes for this decline to stop.

Basically the only way I see Europe making the change is this:
After decades of economic and social problems, Europe is met with a crisis in its front lawn and realizes they have become too weak to counter it. After trying to ignore it, it goes out of hand and the politicians become under huge pressure. They try their usual tactic of deflecting blame etc. on to the US but this time, the problems are so severe it doesn't work. Europe tries to do something about it but fails miserably and has to ask for America to fix the problem.
A most unfortunate scenario for Europe, but this isn't too far from reality. Remember that the breakup of the former Yugoslavia was supposed to be Europe's finest hour and the testing ground of post-Cold War Europe. A regional, purely European conflict wasn't dealt with properly by a seemingly strong Europe and Americans had to carry the brunt of the military operations (mostly the air strikes).
But even then, it is the civilians in the European countries that need to make their sacrifices so their country can be stronger. They have to listen to the words, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." This line applies even to the economy of the country. There's only so much the country can do for you, because they're doing it with your money.

Another issue.
- Irresponsibility on the part of European men in supporting children has lead to a severe drop in families as a whole, and a lack of children. This is a huge problem because a country fails to sustain itself. So the void is filled with immigrants and that brings about other problems... now with the whole war on terror, when this immigrant group happens to be Muslim, culture clashes will occur and the country can be embroiled in a cultural war.

Lack of internal stability hinder's a country's power.

Anyways feel free to discuss.
 
I think in Iceland... 70% of the children are born out of wedlock. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure it's close to the actual figure.
 
Either way, we got immigrants from the Middle East and up to Pakistan to worry about, the Americans have Hispanic and Chinese immigrants to worry about.

This is just a product of our equal society (man-woman) where the women wants to have a career too and with it brings just one or two children into this world...plus high costs of having 3 or more kids are detrimental to the wish of having a big family as well.
In those countries mentioned above there is none of that and they breed like rabbits-no rubberwear, no pills...just gitty up biatch and 9 months later another hungry mouth to feed which in turn drives them towards a better paycheck which in turn leads them inevitably towards Europe or the U.S.

IMO the best (medium to long term) solution would be to advertise contraception in these countries and to invest in them so that the jobs are at hand and there's no need to go abroad...and almost forgot, putting a big emphasis on education would be most welcome too.

I know, I know contraception will be a bit hard for the horny and uneducated but factory work should do just fine...I mean after a certain period of adaptation and learning even a hunter from the African savana (sp?) should be able to weld stuff together...just an example


And generally about the state of Europe, it's going through some critical times at the moment, but when it's all sorted out (constitution, euro...) we'll be strong again...better yet we're strong right now too, but divided unfortunately.
 
rOk said:
Either way, we got immigrants from the Middle East and up to Pakistan to worry about, the Americans have Hispanic and Chinese immigrants to worry about.
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I kind of agree that Hispanic and Chinese imigrants may cause a problem especially with crime and all, but then again there are jobs they take than very few Americans would be willing to do. But unlike the Muslim immigrants they probably won't be threatening a future Jihad against their host country, compared to that, immigrants in America are only a so-so problem.
 
On immigrants and national security:

The main problem with immigrants is loyalty. If they feel more loyal to the country they left than to their new country that can be a huge security problem. However we all know this is not always the case, such as the Ethiopian community in Washington DC is made up of political exiles and the South Vietnamese are in no way fond of the North Vietnamese.

On divorce and native population sustainability (for economy, tech. and military etc):

As for divorce rates... I think that is a less of an issue than families actually creating children and also the total fertility rate. If they get married, have kids, then divorce then at *least* they still contributed to creating the next generation.
Or who knows... maybe the future of having children is in much older age, and they're going to have to preserve the eggs from the mother while she is still in her 20s and have them cryofreezed. Then when she is ready to settle down and have a child with someone, they take it out, artificially inseminate and have the egg put in the womb. If anything, just to have kids.

**related to topics we're touching but starting to digress a wee bit from our original topic **

You know what? We might be discovering how the whole gender roles were invented in the first place.

Practically every cultural norm, more and even taboo were created at one ponit for a reason. Over time, the reasons are lost and we don't know why we do them but we still do. We're undoing some and we're discovering possibly why the norm was put there in the first place. The existence of men and women both in professional worlds for example. Who knows if we'll discover something about total acceptance of homosexuality?
But some we know were created of outdated reasons... such as Muslims not eating pork or touching or eating dogs came from the fact that these animals were often full of disease during the time of Muhamed and that Western attitudes towards dogs comes from Germanic roots where dogs were essential hunting tools... so if the dog died, your food choices would be severely limited.

Heck the Muslims could be right. How ironic would that be?
 
Europe needs a revolution to overcome it's current problem (decline).

But "democracy" will stop this "revolution" happening, then Europe is basically a lost case.
 
Once upon a time, Europe was the most technologically advanced group of nations on Earth, and ran all over the planet as though they owned the whole thing. Small European nations were able to dominate regions and lands far bigger and more populous than themselves. They were the center of all new ideas and the source of almost all progress. The world was in awe of Europe then. Those times have certainly changed.

They are still more technologically advanced, on average, than most of the rest of the world, but the degree of superiority is nothing like it once was. I don't know that Europe has declined. It's more that the rest of the world did a lot of catching up. The United States, Japan and South Korea are some examples of non-European nations that have surpassed all or most of Europe in almost every category. The days of Europe dominating the whole world has drawn to a close for the most part. I see no realistic means of getting back to where they were. They will still be well above average for a very long time.
 
will still be well above average for a very long time.
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That's for sure.

Europe is and will stay as a wonderfull place to live in, but in comparative sense it is in "decline", and that hurts a lot.
 
The Colonial Period saw European arrogance at its peak. I'd rather not see that again. I think Europe will ultimately be better off for not have such an inflated view of their own importance to the world.

Also, its a pattern for what will likely happen to the United States to a much lesser degree -- the contrast between ... lets say France, and the United States would be a good example of similarities and differences. The United States has the natural resources, land and population to remain one of the top nations indefinitely, but it is very possible to for a certain few nations to surpass the USA. France has no possible means of regaining its former status as the most powerful nation in the World as it once was. They haven't the population, resources or land mass to pull it off ... short of something drastic happening (France being the sole nation not being affected by a world-wide catastrophe like a Supervolcano erruption or Nuclear Holocaust, etc).
 
When Europe is able to get rid of the political liberal left and come back to a more conservative system of values, recovery will follow. :? :?

The liberal left has gutted your armed forces and relies too heavily on the U.N. for protection of soverenty. Wrong approach for a strong country. Your populations have been taxed to death in favor of social programs(socialism) which does not work. :shock: :shock:
 
2 world wars helped a lot too...towards the decline...

Europe needs a revolution to overcome it's current problem (decline).

But "democracy" will stop this "revolution" happening, then Europe is basically a lost case.
Click to expand...

Which revolution would that be?
Red perhaps?
 
I live in Europe, Germany, for many years now. I see no decline. Sure, the economy might be a bit slow at the moment, but things like that happen to economies. And the European economy IS strong. Its just growing slowly at present. Europe is undergoing a lot of structural changes. Who can blame em? Germany in particular has to build up East Germany. For those that do not remember. It has only been a few years since they reunited with what had become a communist economy pit. It's a big challenge. All of Europe is... :)

For its current problems, some blame the social approach. I praise it. Its merrits are apparent. Social justice, for one. Personal freedom. You don't see poverty here like you find it in the US. You don't see people without teeth. General health care. High living standards. Very low crime. Accessible education to everyone. Decline? Where?

*leans out of his window, looks left, looks right*

Don't see it. Lovin' it...

God save Europe! :roll:
 
Bratwurst said:
I live in Europe, Germany, for many years now. I see no decline. Sure, the economy might be a bit slow at the moment, but things like that happen to economies. And the European economy IS strong. Its just growing slowly at present. Europe is undergoing a lot of structural changes. Who can blame em? Germany in particular has to build up East Germany. For those that do not remember. It has only been a few years since they reunited with what had become a communist economy pit. It's a big challenge. All of Europe is... :)

For its current problems, some blame the social approach. I praise it. Its merrits are apparent. Social justice, for one. Personal freedom. You don't see poverty here like you find it in the US. You don't see people without teeth. General health care. High living standards. Very low crime. Accessible education to everyone. Decline? Where?

*leans out of his window, looks left, looks right*

Don't see it. Lovin' it...

God save Europe! :roll:
Click to expand...

Heheh, we need to get Doc. to respond to that one.
 
CMA2 said:
When Europe is able to get rid of the political liberal left and come back to a more conservative system of values, recovery will follow. :? :?

The liberal left has gutted your armed forces and relies too heavily on the U.N. for protection of soverenty. Wrong approach for a strong country. Your populations have been taxed to death in favor of social programs(socialism) which does not work. :shock: :shock:
Click to expand...

You can't just lump every country in Europe in the same category. We in the UK are doing quite well except our leader is a bit too much inclined to side with the US all the time for my liking. The UK economy is doing very well at the moment. Look at that tiny country off the coast of Europe that also happens to be the 4th strongest economy in the world. Not bad for a population of just £60m.

Europe does have some issues to face and I think you'll see some real changes in the next 10 years.
 
Europe does have some issues to face and I think you'll see some real changes in the next 10 years.
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Yup, as soon as the Brits stop hating Germans, accept the Euro and forget the Empire, we're en route! ;)
 
Doppleganger said:
CMA2 said:
When Europe is able to get rid of the political liberal left and come back to a more conservative system of values, recovery will follow. :? :?

The liberal left has gutted your armed forces and relies too heavily on the U.N. for protection of soverenty. Wrong approach for a strong country. Your populations have been taxed to death in favor of social programs(socialism) which does not work. :shock: :shock:
Click to expand...

You can't just lump every country in Europe in the same category. We in the UK are doing quite well except our leader is a bit too much inclined to side with the US all the time for my liking. The UK economy is doing very well at the moment. Look at that tiny country off the coast of Europe that also happens to be the 4th strongest economy in the world. Not bad for a population of just £60m.

Europe does have some issues to face and I think you'll see some real changes in the next 10 years.
Click to expand...

You're leader rocks the house!
 
I often travel to different European countries, and I must say I wish my country was as declining as Holland, Sweden, Germany or France.

There is more to life than economic growth, especially when it is at the expense of environment and social cohesion, and only serves to funnel money to the already-rich.

That's not to say the Europeans couldn't organise their defence affairs better. Air superiority fighters, nuclear submarines and heavy tanks (combined with ability to mass-mobilise the citizenry) may seem like relics of the past, but the world is not as different a place as people like to suppose.
 
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