How do we deal with Pirate attacks?

[rattler]

CIWS... that would be cruel. hehe

Indeed, splendid idea...

Especially if you hit your own vessel with your weapons and CWIS untrained crew whyile trying to confront a simultaneous 6-direction attack...

Even more so if that blows a hole in your cask and - just let say for starter you only punctured one compartment and are not sinking - you find yourself w/o pirates but with some 26k cubic metres of oil in the sea for which your company will be charged around 300+ milions of $s to clean it up (? not current on the actual price here, I just cited the "Exxon Valdez" data as an example assuming 10% of the damage done then by not sinking and spilling the whole 266k cubic metres).

Just the (minimal) risk of that makes it a no-go to arm ships crews - and less with CWIS - from an insurance POV, so, why do you keep re-iterating it?

Let´s see, could be there any more reasons besides cost for not arming crews?

- Call the number of intl ports that allow armed merchants in... ? Over how many nations? How long to get all those ports that one merchant has to hit to agree to let him in? Cost? Time? Risk? Where do you unload your cargo if you cannot enter port?

- Wow, I just got me a merchant in front of my house (I do live 5 mtrs from the sea with a major traffic lane 2 miles out) that has some RPGs, .50 cal guns and CWIS ...

Always wanted one, pity they are illegal here and so cost 100k+$, and all those guys out there have them?! Come on, buddies, let us get some piece of that cake! Better price than cocain!

Seriously, you think that having armed vessels travelling the planet will not attract the tenfold number of pirates just to get a hand on those arms? The higher you go in the level to arm your crew, the more interesting a target you will be for terrorists that are just looking for that stuff we try to deny them in other scenarios.

Get realistic, this wont happen... (and there are even more reaons than the mentioned why not).

If it should happen (armed crews) - and Murphy says it is probable just to make us cringe - from my POV arms race escalation and associated escalation in damage will be the result, i.e. this solution is counterproductive!

Rattler

 

[rattler]

I am a little confused here... -snip-

Was wondering, thx you cleared that one up... :salute2:

Rattler

 

[MontyB]

So how long do you think it will take before the pirates fire up Google and buy non-fouling prop systems for their boats?

Can you explain what the benefits to the world are in constantly running away from these guys actually is especially in the context that since they began trying to do that the pirates just moved further out and away from the currently patrolled areas?

So far all I see are some ideas to go and rebuild Somalia (which has been tried and failed at extreme cost in terms of lives and money) and a bunch of non-lethal measures to ensure that the pirates are free to repeat the process on the next vessel that floats by.

If you are going to give ideas on the issue at least give ones that will solve it not simply move it to another part of the ocean because these attacks will not stop as long as:
A) Ransoms are paid.
B) There is no risk in doing it.

In the end as B increases and A reduces so the attacks will stop.

 

[rattler]

So far all I see are some ideas to go and rebuild Somalia - snip - and a bunch of non-lethal measures to ensure that the pirates are free to repeat the process on the next vessel that floats by.

If you are going to give ideas on the issue at least give ones that will solve it -snip-

AFAIK I have already posted (and at least partially discussed) a collection of ideas before in this thread (and included the dont-pay-ransom and heighten-the-risk thingy), the non-lethal were added as an afterthought. Still waiting for any other ideas (?) by other contributors to come up... :drill:

Nation building was indeed one of them, the rest were:

- Send in the navies
- Kill them
- Allow arms on merchant vessels
- Hire mercenaries either onboard or as company
- Sink the mother ships
- Form convoys
- Do never pay ransom
- Pounce the sources, aka attack Somalia

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/503481-post.html

Rattler

 

[senojekips]

Indeed, splendid idea...

Especially if you hit your own vessel with your weapons and CWIS untrained crew while trying to confront a simultaneous 6-direction attack...

CIWS like all weapons of it's type has safety stops, you can't hit your own vessel. Also I think that you are seriously overestimating the abilities of the pirates as far as mounting six pronged attacks, at the moment I've never heard of a multi pronged attack being mounted.

If we use our weapons system properly it would be mounted on a "Q" ship and would have to have trained operator/maintainers. Systems like this are not an amateur option.

Used so that no survivors ever reported back what happened, the fear of the unknown would have a serious impact on the desires of those wishing to put to sea and commit acts of piracy.

The vessel would look like another merchant vessel and would just steam up and down the coast line waiting to be attacked. Once the pirate groups noticed that their mates were just disappearing off the face of the earth they would start to have second thoughts about the wisdom of their choice.

Still waiting for any other ideas (?) by other contributors to come up... :drill:

The ideas have been posted, and we are not here to satisfy your wishes but to express our ideas. If you are not happy with them I would suggest that perhaps you try to better them.

 

[A Can of Man]

The latest is that the Dutch managed to arrest a few pirates. The hostages were rescued and the pirates had to be released.
The Dutch can only arrest if
a) The crew are Dutch
b) The pirates are Dutch
c) It happens inside Dutch waters
So yeah these pirates get to go free and try again.
Hell... now who on earth DOESN'T want to be a pirate??

 

[rattler]

The ideas have been posted, and we are not here to satisfy your wishes but to express our ideas. -snip-

The idea with the Q-ships was indeed posted and discussed, I stand corrected and apologize.

OTOH I was replying to someone who had suggested that I had not posted any, maybe I overdid it a bit in my sarcastical reply.

Rattler

 

[KJ]

Indeed, splendid idea...

Especially if you hit your own vessel with your weapons and CWIS untrained crew whyile trying to confront a simultaneous 6-direction attack...

Even more so if that blows a hole in your cask and - just let say for starter you only punctured one compartment and are not sinking - you find yourself w/o pirates but with some 26k cubic metres of oil in the sea for which your company will be charged around 300+ milions of $s to clean it up (? not current on the actual price here, I just cited the "Exxon Valdez" data as an example assuming 10% of the damage done then by not sinking and spilling the whole 266k cubic metres).

Just the (minimal) risk of that makes it a no-go to arm ships crews - and less with CWIS - from an insurance POV, so, why do you keep re-iterating it?

Let´s see, could be there any more reasons besides cost for not arming crews?

- Call the number of intl ports that allow armed merchants in... ? Over how many nations? How long to get all those ports that one merchant has to hit to agree to let him in? Cost? Time? Risk? Where do you unload your cargo if you cannot enter port?

- Wow, I just got me a merchant in front of my house (I do live 5 mtrs from the sea with a major traffic lane 2 miles out) that has some RPGs, .50 cal guns and CWIS ...

Always wanted one, pity they are illegal here and so cost 100k+$, and all those guys out there have them?! Come on, buddies, let us get some piece of that cake! Better price than cocain!

Seriously, you think that having armed vessels travelling the planet will not attract the tenfold number of pirates just to get a hand on those arms? The higher you go in the level to arm your crew, the more interesting a target you will be for terrorists that are just looking for that stuff we try to deny them in other scenarios.

Get realistic, this wont happen... (and there are even more reaons than the mentioned why not).

If it should happen (armed crews) - and Murphy says it is probable just to make us cringe - from my POV arms race escalation and associated escalation in damage will be the result, i.e. this solution is counterproductive!

Rattler

Howcome you are against weaponry on ships?
You DO know even your Navy have that, right?
A Qship would be a Naval unit just like a destroyer or battleship.

I didn´t suggest all merchantships should get their own CIWS, a weaponsystem neither I nor you know enough to discuss really.
That I base on your comment that merchantships would sink themselves with them.
I feel it´s rather unrealistic to assume someone would mount a CIWS onto a ships deck without mounting a realistic failsafe for this purpose and a few more.
I could discuss .50 HMG,s all day with you, but that would probably not mean anything as you could just assume the gunner would be a onelegged semiblind 13 yearold girl out of Okinawa.

You know what the say about assumptions Sir.

You live by the ocean?
I understand your concern, propertyprices will plummet after the first armed merchantship starts to fire at your Villa with it´s wrongly mounted CIWS?

Do you want to find a sulution to the problem or create more problems?
Either could be done.

 

[rattler]

You live by the ocean?

I understand your concern, propertyprices will plummet after the first armed merchantship starts to fire at your Villa with it´s wrongly mounted CIWS?

Ouch, I have never thought about this aspect of arms on ships with untrained ppl behind, my house indeed could be in peril (first lane, 1nm close to a major shipping line), thanks for alerting me... :m1:

Rattler

 

[wolfen]

AFAIK I have already posted (and at least partially discussed) a collection of ideas before in this thread (and included the dont-pay-ransom and heighten-the-risk thingy), the non-lethal were added as an afterthought. Still waiting for any other ideas (?) by other contributors to come up... :drill:

Nation building was indeed one of them, the rest were:

- Send in the navies
- Kill them
- Allow arms on merchant vessels
- Hire mercenaries either onboard or as company
- Sink the mother ships
- Form convoys
- Do never pay ransom
- Pounce the sources, aka attack Somalia

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/503481-post.html

Rattler

I like those above best

 

[perseus]

Well this is how a pirate sees it, all they want to do is fish. mmmmm

Also our work is seen by many in the coastal villages as legal and we are viewed as heroes.

The only way the piracy can stop is if [Somalia] gets an effective government that can defend our fish.

And then we will disarm, give our boats to that government and will be ready to work.

Foreign navies can do nothing to stop piracy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8010061.stm

 

[CW3htaberner]

Some suggestions to slow down piracy problem

Lets kidnap them and hold them and their boats for ransom, to return some or all of the crews and ships they are holding...already the Mother of the so called 16 year old wants him back. One somali exchanged for a ships crew and one or two motorboats for one ship. It will be a prisoner of war type of exchange. If this doesn't work then try this: When and if we or other countries must still give them ransome money, make sure it unspendable by giving the unuseable serial numbers or marked bills to Interpol. Eventually, the people they are buying goods and arms from will not want to do business with them.

 

[mmarsh]

Lets kidnap them and hold them and their boats for ransom, to return some or all of the crews and ships they are holding...already the Mother of the so called 16 year old wants him back. One somali exchanged for a ships crew and one or two motorboats for one ship. It will be a prisoner of war type of exchange. If this doesn't work then try this: When and if we or other countries must still give them ransome money, make sure it unspendable by giving the unuseable serial numbers or marked bills to Interpol. Eventually, the people they are buying goods and arms from will not want to do business with them.

Do you know how much a black man life is worth in Somalia? Exactly Zero. Do you think the pirate leaders are going to exchange hostages and ships worth millions for people they don't give a damn about? Material losses like ships and weapons can be replaced, there is an extensive Black market in Somalia and these pirates are very wealthy.

That's why your idea wont work.

 

[rattler]

Lets kidnap them and hold them and their boats for ransom, to return some or all of the crews and ships they are holding...already the Mother of the so called 16 year old wants him back.

Do you know how much a black man life is worth in Somalia? Exactly Zero. Do you think the pirate leaders are going to exchange hostages and ships worth millions for people they don't give a damn about?

Interesting aspect, I would go with CW3 here at first glance...:

Maybe a life is not worth zero, but the boats and even more so - The Engines! - are. Also, this would have a "justice" ascpect those guys are easily able to grab and follow.

OTOH, the prob has long since developed to a new stage , the "taxis" that now form the MotherShips with innocent crew aboard cannot be handled under this stance.

On the long run I think this would spoil CW3s idea.

Rattler

 

[A Can of Man]

No, Mmarsh is probably right. That guy means nothing to another group of pirates who have hostages.
Imagine, there are two bank robberies going on at once. Both groups have hostages. You manage to arrest one group of bank robbers from across town and try to use them to release the hostages that the other group has. They don't even know each other. It's not going to work. These guys kill each other over nothing. They're not going to give up hope on several millions of dollars because of a crying mother.

 

[03USMC]

Maybe a life is not worth zero, but the boats and even more so - The Engines! - are. Also, this would have a "justice" ascpect those guys are easily able to grab and follow.

Justice?

Somali's understand a high volume accurate fire that will take them out

and......

The Koran as it is interpreted to them by the Mullahs (since the vast majority are illiterate, due to the lack of goverment and infrastructure)

Somali "Justice" comes out of the barrel of a gun.

marsh is right. They'll lose men and not care. They'll lose boats and not care.

 

[tomtom22]

Justice?

Somali's understand a high volume accurate fire that will take them out

and......

The Koran as it is interpreted to them by the Mullahs (since the vast majority are illiterate, due to the lack of goverment and infrastructure)

Somali "Justice" comes out of the barrel of a gun.

marsh is right. They'll lose men and not care. They'll lose boats and not care.

This is the kind of stategy to use against the pirates that they will understand and fear.

 

[hetfield15]

The greek ship Psara broke the record . Hellenic Underwater Demolition Command did the most pirate arrests and take downs .HUDC is one of the best commands in the world as USA said in the nato exercise .

 

[MontyB]

Well this is how a pirate sees it, all they want to do is fish. mmmmm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8010061.stm

We could assist their efforts by feeding pirates to the fish thus creating a flourishing industry for those who figure out that fishing may be a safer option.

History has shown us that this is not an occupation that understands anything more than violence "piracy" through out history has never stopped through diplomatic measures and economic development (hell half the pirates of the 1500-1800s were from economically developed countries and sailed under there protection) it stopped when the retirement options for pirates was death and it usually came a few months after taking up the occupation.

Theoretically I am not even sure they are "pirates" at all, I don't recall Black Beard or Morgan demanding 10 million dollars to give the ships and crew back as I recall pirates plunder the ship and then bugger off or add it to their fleet.

Seriously it isn't hard to see why these guys have taken up this profession when the worlds response is "its not their fault they live in a law less country" and "We should build then a nation then they will all become fisherman", I will bet that should the "developed" world adopt a more hands on approach and started obliterating coastal villages for every ship that is hijacked the problem will diminish far quicker and cheaper than just handing over cash.

Not everything in life requires a violent or military response but this is certainly one of those instances where it is the only answer.

 

[BritinBritain]

It seems that some shipping companies are taking piracy seriously

Cruise ship fights off pirates
26/04/2009 13:41 - (SA)

Rome - An Italian cruise ship was attacked by pirates off the coast of Somalia late on Saturday but managed to escape and no one was hurt, its captain told Italy's ANSA news agency.
The Melody got away from the six Kalashnikov-armed pirates aboard a light speedboat after security men on board returned fire, Captain Ciro Pinto told the agency. The cruise ship headed for the Jordanian port of Aqaba.
The incident occurred at 19:35 on Saturday as the Melody, owned by Italian company MSC, was returning to Italy after the winter cruise season. On board were 991 passengers and 536 crew.
Attacks on commercial vessels are far more common than on cruise ships in the pirate-infested waters off Somalia.
The 75m Italian tug Buccaneer with 10 Italians, five Romanians and a Croatian on board, was captured on April 11 in the Gulf of Aden.
Ransom-hunting pirates off lawless Somalia - without an effective central government since 1991 - have defied an increased international naval presence to step up attacks during favourable weather, seizing at least a dozen ships in April alone.
The US Fifth Fleet announced on Friday it is transferring command of the counter-piracy international naval force CTF 151 to the Turkish Navy on May 3.
CTF 151 was established in January this year to fight piracy in the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean.
Somali pirates attacked more than 130 merchant ships in the Gulf of Aden last year, an increase of more than 200% on 2007, according to the International Maritime Bureau, which tracks piracy.
Heavily armed pirates operate high-powered speed boats and sometimes hold ships for weeks before releasing them for large ransoms paid by governments or ship owners.
More than 150 suspected pirates were arrested by naval patrols in the Gulf in 2008.
CTF 151 is one of four international naval forces operating in the region. The others are the European Union's "EUNAVFOR Atalanta," NATO's Standing Naval Maritime Group One and French-commanded Combined Task Force 150.
Attacks increased tenfold in the first three months of 2009 compared to the same period last year