How innocent are civilians in wartime?

Der Alte

It was not just Britain that Germany bombed to peices, there was some 60.000 people killed in one German air raid against Stanligrad just before the first attack went in by land. The first night big night raid on London in 1940 was a German attempt to start a fire storm which nearly succeded.

I know my friend.

The time was different back then. I would not have hesitated to kill you then - you were the enemy. But done is done.

I think the two of us, who have experienced this time, we will probably always look a little askance at each other. Our generation will probably never be real friends. Old grudges still lies latent in our minds.
 
Der Alte

When I was a young lad I met a number of German POW's who did some local work and got to know them quite well, in fact I liked them as nice blokes. When I was at church one Sunday a visiting vicar lets loose barrage against Germany and how they should be wiped out, which as far as I was concerned was not very Christian and after that I stopped going to church, well thats my excuse for not going any way.
Still I will always argue that it was the only way we could fight back and I am sure if Germany had heavy bombers they would have used them against us.
 
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George Bell, Richard Stokes and Alfred Salter stood alone with their view. The Archbishop of York replied to George Bell in Parliament
"it is a lesser evil to bomb the war-loving Germans than to sacrifice the lives of our fellow countrymen..., or to delay the delivery of many now held in slavery"

Like I said before, you cannot look at history with the eyes of today. Der Alte said:
During the war, I was believer in total war but today it is my position that any deliberate attack on civilians is the same as sacrificing our conscience on the altar of war.

This is what I mean. You cannot blaim him for what he did back then because at that time he did not knew what he knows now. If he would have had that knowledge then , then he propably would have changed some decisions.
This does not mean that crimes can be left unpunished but one must take into account the circumstances.

About the Nuremberg trials no Axis personnel were tried for conducting aerial operations but they did use new laws retroactive, so people were convicted for things that were not concidered a crime at the time of occurrence.
 
If I chucked a Mills 36 threw your front window where you and your family were sitting you'd sit back and say "Never mind, I'll turn the other cheek and wont rip his head off." Like hell you would. You can never compare total war with anything else, because there is nothing else like it including school yard justification.

No I wouldn't turn the other cheek I would come after you and your family but not the whole town you live in.

Total war isn't chivalry with knights in shining armour on white chargers, its nasty and you do your best to win whatever it takes.

I never disagreed however it is perhaps best that if you are going to sink to the level of your opponent that you not paint yourself as knights in shining armour.

Here is an old favourite in these situations:
Be careful when you fight monsters, lest you become one.Friedrich Nietzsche
 
If you have fought then you know just what you will do to survive and if that means turning into a monster then so be it. As they say to victor goes the spoils and the looser has to take what ever is doled out to them

After the war in Germany, Britain went on even shorter rations to help them out and the people of Europe and were not on a lot at this time we took the extra cut
 
If you have fought then you know just what you will do to survive and if that means turning into a monster then so be it. As they say to victor goes the spoils and the looser has to take what ever is doled out to them

After the war in Germany, Britain went on even shorter rations to help them out and the people of Europe and were not on a lot at this time we took the extra cut

Again I kind of think we have reached an impasse as we seem to be regurgitating the same story with no real meeting point.

For once I am going to leave this fight by agreeing with a clergyman(not bad for a near atheist):
night-bombing of non-combatants is a degradation of the spirit for all who take part in it - Bishop Bell 10th May 1941
 
"All’s fair in love and war", they say. But this is not a valid argument in the real world. Even in an extreme situation such as war, soldiers are still answerable for their actions.

You don't just become a "monster", you personify destruction. We don't become what we fight, we lose our awareness. You just tend to become a lot worse than what you fought, as you match that so you may overcome. It's a cycle, this process of violence, as another might seek conflict with you, and thus this cylce tends to increase at every point of turn, as the newer opposition tends to increase his goals to your last, to overcome, you need to thus match at least. And since it differs person-to-person, the lack of awareness increases with every conflict. Because as you win one (if you lose, another takes your place and increases in violence because of your loss) dispute in a violent manner, the next one would amplify the cycle of violence, you then project violence in a larger manner - thus giving birth to a monster growing with each conflict.
 
I think we are trying to justify matters as we see it. To judge those folks back at that time when it happened, we got to put ourselves in that time and place to better understand why they do the things that they did.

In my opinion, Germany did what they did becasue they felt that the treaty that was drafted after WWI was not fair to them. Hitler gave then something to believe in, galvanised them into a society that believeed that it was truly great.

Great Britain did what it thought was the only way to respond to what Germany did to them. The Japanese did ... enough said.

Are Germans and British bad people? Cetainly not, judging from the forum members we have here. I can tell you if you ask what the British think of the firebombing of German cities, they will most likely tell you"... not out finest hour...". Ask any German if he thinks that the killing of Jews is something to be applauded, he would likely tell you that it is not what sensible Germans would do...

I would agree with most that in war, you do what you need to win, and if it means killing your enemy in the most brutal fashion, so be it... Sometimes, being brutal has its purpose- it lets your enemy know to what extent you are prepared to do- that itself can be a great deterrent.

I feel sad to read of some of the experiences of some forum members, but i feel glad at the same time that now, we can discuss this openly without any animosity.

I leave you with a quotr from the movie "Full Metal Jacket". It maybe a movie but it pretty much sums up what has been discussed...

"Anyone who run is a VC...
Anyone who stand is a well trained VC..."
 
"All’s fair in love and war", they say. But this is not a valid argument in the real world. Even in an extreme situation such as war, soldiers are still answerable for their actions.

You don't just become a "monster", you personify destruction. We don't become what we fight, we lose our awareness. You just tend to become a lot worse than what you fought, as you match that so you may overcome. It's a cycle, this process of violence, as another might seek conflict with you, and thus this cylce tends to increase at every point of turn, as the newer opposition tends to increase his goals to your last, to overcome, you need to thus match at least. And since it differs person-to-person, the lack of awareness increases with every conflict. Because as you win one (if you lose, another takes your place and increases in violence because of your loss) dispute in a violent manner, the next one would amplify the cycle of violence, you then project violence in a larger manner - thus giving birth to a monster growing with each conflict.

Very true but is it not possible that in "celebrating" for want of a better word actions such as Dresden are we not setting the new standard in concrete allowing the next one to grow.

It is widely understood that people die in wars and a proportion of them will be non-combatants but expectation is that these will be kept to a minimum and this was even the case during WW2 or there would have not been such an outcry about the atrocities committed afterwards, the Nuremberg/Tokyo trials would have been unnecessary had we simply accepted the argument that war is war.

Basically in my opinion we held the Japanese and German leaders to a different standard than we held our own and it is that discrepancy or hypocrisy that gives birth to the next monster hence my argument that we justified some appalling actions on the grounds of "but they started it".

Great Britain did what it thought was the only way to respond to what Germany did to them. The Japanese did ... enough said...

Why is it ok to drop bombs on a city full of civilians (say Hamburg) but it is not ok to shoot a town full of civilians (say Lidice)?
 
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I think I would have a lot more respect for the people who say what the Allies did was wrong actually lived through these times, or had been to war them selfs. I wonder if they saw their friends killed in front of them when attacked by low flying planes when they were children, then had to fight for their country. I think that this alone colours your out look on certain events. You could also ask why the Russians troops went over the top when they moved through Germany.
Now check on Sandhurst School near Hither Green South London, I do not know if any thing is on the web about it but that is one place that German fighter planes visited.

Also there is no comment about the V1 & V2 that rained down on southern England, lets get real WW2 was a dirty war which you could not afford to loose and every thing possible had to be done to win it

This will be my last comment on the matter as we are just going around in circles on it.
 
No I wouldn't turn the other cheek I would come after you and your family but not the whole town you live in.

Why come after my family when they had no part in my attack on you? You would be doing "exactly" the same as Bomber Command but on a much smaller scale.

Again I kind of think we have reached an impasse as we seem to be regurgitating the same story with no real meeting point.

For once I am going to leave this fight by agreeing with a clergyman(not bad for a near atheist):

Regarding Bishop Bell and his "night-bombing of non-combatants is a degradation of the spirit for all who take part in it -"

He did not have the support of senior bishops. The Archbishop of York replied to him in Parliament "it is a lesser evil to bomb the war-loving Germans than to sacrifice the lives of our fellow countrymen..., or to delay the delivery of many now held in slavery"
 
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Why come after my family when they had no part in my attack on you? You would be doing "exactly" the same as Bomber Command but on a much smaller scale.



Regarding Bishop Bell and his "night-bombing of non-combatants is a degradation of the spirit for all who take part in it -"

He did not have the support of senior bishops. The Archbishop of York replied to him in Parliament "it is a lesser evil to bomb the war-loving Germans than to sacrifice the lives of our fellow countrymen..., or to delay the delivery of many now held in slavery"

The point wasn't that he was representative of the church but rather to indicate that not everyone was in favour of area bombing and that in fact some relatively high ranking people did not support it.

I doubt very strongly that the British public in general would have been as supportive either had they known the extent to which it was being carried out, I suspect this because a number of the pro-area bombing leaders made statements that it was important that communications only mention the military aspect of the bombing.

As for my response, I would disagree it was a measured response that targeted those responsible and not everyone.
:)

But I do agree with LeE, this discussion is starting to cycle.
 
THE UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY
September 30, 1945

Early Air Operations -- City Area Raids

The pioneer in the air war against Germany was the RAF. The RAF experimented briefly in 1940 with daylight attacks on industrial targets in Germany but abandoned the effort when losses proved unbearably heavy. Thereafter, it attempted to find and attack such targets as oil, aluminum and aircraft plants at night. This effort too was abandoned; with available techniques it was not possible to locate the targets often enough. Then the RAF began its famous raids on German urban and industrial centers. On the night of May 30, 1942, it mounted its first "thousand plane" raid against Cologne and two nights later struck Essen with almost equal force. On three nights in late July and early August 1943 it struck Hamburg in perhaps the most devastating single city attack of the war -- about one third of the houses of the city were destroyed and German estimates show 60,000 to 100,000 people killed. No subsequent city raid shook Germany as did that on Hamburg; documents show that German officials were thoroughly alarmed and there is some indication from interrogation of high officials that Hitler himself thought that further attacks of similar weight might force Germany out of the war. The RAF proceeded to destroy one major urban center after another. Except in the extreme eastern part of the Reich, there is no major city that does not bear the mark of these attacks. However, no subsequent attack had the shock effect of the Hamburg raid.

"I reported for the first time orally to the Fuehrer that if these aerial attacks continued, a rapid end of the war might be the consequence."
Speer to Survey Interrogators on the Hamburg attacks.​


In the latter half of 1944, aided by new navigational techniques, the RAF returned with part of its force to an attack on industrial targets. These attacks were notably successful but it is with the attacks on urban areas that the RAF is most prominently identified.

The city attacks of the RAF prior to the autumn of 1944, did not substantially affect the course of German war production. German war production as a whole continued to increase. This in itself is not conclusive, but the Survey has made detailed analysis of the course of production and trade in 10 German cities that were attacked during this

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period and has made more general analyses in others. These show that while production received a moderate setback after a raid, it recovered substantially within a relatively few weeks. As a rule the industrial plants were located around the perimeter of German cities and characteristically these were relatively undamaged.

Commencing in the autumn of 1944, the tonnage dropped on city areas, plus spill-overs from attacks on transportation and other specific targets, mounted greatly. In the course of these raids, Germany's steel industry was knocked out, its electric power industry was substantially impaired and industry generally in the areas attacked was disorganized. There were so many forces making for the collapse of production during this period, however, that it is not possible separately to assess the effect of these later area raids on war production. There is no doubt, however, that they were significant.

The Survey has made extensive studies of the reaction of the German people to the air attack and especially to city raids. These studies were carefully designed to cover a complete cross section of the German people in western and southern Germany and to reflect with a minimum of bias their attitude and behavior during the raids. These studies show that the morale of the German people deteriorated under aerial attack. The night raids were feared far more than daylight raids. The people lost faith in the prospect of victory, in their leaders and in the promises and propaganda to which they were subjected. Most of all, they wanted the war to end. They resorted increasingly to "black radio'' listening, to circulation of rumor and fact in opposition to the Regime; and there was some increase in active political dissidence -- in 1944 one German in every thousand was arrested for a political offense. If they had been at liberty to vote themselves out of the war, they would have done so well before the final surrender. In a determined police state, however, there is a wide difference between dissatisfaction and expressed opposition. Although examination of official records and those of individual plants shows that absenteeism increased and productivity diminished somewhat in the late stages of the war, by and large workers continued to work. However dissatisfied they were with the war, the German people lacked either the will or the means to make their dissatisfaction evident.

The city area raids have left their mark on the German people as well as on their cities. Far more than any other military action that preceded the actual occupation of Germany itself, these attacks left the German people with a solid lesson in the disadvantages of war. It was a terrible lesson; conceivably that lesson, both in Germany and abroad, could be the most lasting single effect of the air war.
 
If the RAF had not carried out their bombing campaign into Germany, the British public who were getting the crap bombed out of them would want to know why the RAF were not hitting back, which could have lead to huge drop in morale and no confidence in the government and the RAF by the civil population, leading possibly to the sacking of Churchill and Arthur Harris and possibly to a drop in vital war production.

This is my last comment on this thread
 
I think I would have a lot more respect for the people who say what the Allies did was wrong actually lived through these times, or had been to war them selfs. I wonder if they saw their friends killed in front of them when attacked by low flying planes when they were children, then had to fight for their country. I think that this alone colours your out look on certain events. You could also ask why the Russians troops went over the top when they moved through Germany.
Now check on Sandhurst School near Hither Green South London, I do not know if any thing is on the web about it but that is one place that German fighter planes visited.

Also there is no comment about the V1 & V2 that rained down on southern England, lets get real WW2 was a dirty war which you could not afford to loose and every thing possible had to be done to win it

This will be my last comment on the matter as we are just going around in circles on it.


City of Londom 1940


London1940.jpg
 
I am pretty sure London was bigger than one city block in 1940.

But just for comparison purposes...
Dresden 1945

Dresden_1945.jpg
 
I think it's a common known feature, that the last world war was the most destructive conflict in human history. That is a very hard note to remember, out of all almost every world power involved in this destructive matter all but the U.S. was seriously wrecked in terms of infrastructure.

Despite this, understanding the Cold War comes very easy , both sides, with veterens of WW ll in various governmental positions all knew, and understood the vast danger posed by a Third World Conlfict, the images of the dire consequences painted by what the world looked like in 1945 were still fresh in mind.

This lesson waseven adheared into the 80's, in the 80's with the threat of a Third Deadly World Conflict errupting made people scared.

Fast foward to today and people seem to have forgotten what scale the last world conlfict and it's widespread destruction meant.

In 2012 if anything it seems like people want it, what if's and what would happen questions seem to be everywhere you look.

What many don't seem to be in touch with is this is not entertainment, and this is not something that you could safley just watch on television. In a World Conlict on a grand scale countries lose much more than infrastructure.

With the horrors that only those who lived it have experianced, why would anyone want encourage such cirmcumstances in a modern sense?
 
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Wasn't it the American civil war General called Sheridan said that in war there is no such thing as an innocent civilian, as they supply the food, money and guns for the soldiers to wage war. If I remember rightly he said that while burning the Shenandoah Valley
 
I think I will leave my last word on this thread to this...

Cathedral statue will mark Germans killed during wartime

By Steve Carpenter 24/05 Updated: 24/05 11:25


A STATUE has been unveiled at Coventry Cathedral in memory of German civilians killed or injured in the Second World War.

The Choir of Survivors is the first permanent memorial to German civilians within the Cathedral grounds.

The statue is dedicated to those killed or injured in Allied aerial bombings between 1940 and 1945.

Created by German sculptor Helmut Hienze, it was unveiled at a special ceremony on Sunday (May 20), where a delegation and choir from the bombed German city of Dresden were invited to take part in the ceremony.

The city is twinned with Coventry in respect of the bombings both experienced during the War.

John Irvine, Dean of Coventry, said: "When my predecessor, Provost Howard, had the words ‘Father Forgive’ placed on the Ruins, it was not focused just at our enemies but on us all for the actions and impact of war.

"An important part of our anniversary is not only to celebrate the past 50 years and the work in Peace and Reconciliation, but also to look forward to the future and to provide a safe space, a haven to remember those civilians killed or injured in wars across the globe."

David Porter, Canon Director for Peace and Reconciliation, added: "This is a significant event in Coventry’s story of Peace and Reconciliation.

"It will enable us to talk not only of the night of 14th November 1940 and how the people of Coventry coped with the aftermath, but also of the suffering of other cities, towns and communities across the world."

http://www.coventryobserver.co.uk/2...mark-Germans-killed-during-wartime-40416.html
 
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