How to handle the Iraq situation?

C

Chocobo_Blitzer

Active member
I'm sorry if this will turn into another flame war, as inflammatory none-americans and belligerant patriotic Americans have ruined most of these topics. Mods if you think this will occur again, I understand a lock.

I know we've been over Iraq before, but I only see topics about the outbreak of the war: "For the oil", "For the daddy", "Free the people", "WMD" "invade North Korea!"

But hardly any progessive discussion of a solution.


The USA and her most trusted allies are in a rather large pickle. If we leave, a civil will occur and an Islamic fascist movement will come into power. There's a chance a secular group like the baathist party could secure power, but I think that's a smaller minority in the sunni bloke right now, I think fundamentalism by the likes of Al Zarqawi is the flavor of the year. In short: quick victory for Islamic fascism.

If we stay, we're in for a long while of coalition deaths and bitter hatred of the USA. The terrorist cause is fueled by disillusioned Iraqis and muslims everywhere. It's impossible to kill them all off with coalition troops.

At our current rate of training professional Iraqi troopers... we'll be there forever. So we need Europeans to step up and help in the Iraq crisis, and that's what it is. We have some allies, but most lack the courage to commit their military to face Islamic fascism. But they can still help, they can still help us train these guys, because the only way you can win is to speak to the people, and to do that you must BE the people. Iraqis need national identity to unite them against the Islamofascist cause.

Of course, the president of the United States needs to reach out to europeans- but so does Europe need to help us. Afterall, if Islam should fall to the fundamentalist cause, it will certainly seek the destruction of the west.
 
All our European Allies are there already. Those others you refer to well nuff said.

We can't leave till the Iraqi Goverment stabilizes and has an infrastructure in place, We knew that going in. We knew we would face that commitment.

I'm against reaching out to Europe on principal. Why should we.
 
The goverment can be in place, but how will it survive without military men to protect it? We have around 5,000 professional Iraqis trained, correct? We really need to speed it up somehow.

I know we must stand tall, but I don't have enough faith in the American civilian to do that. It's not so much I'm saying we need to beg for the europeans, but that the europeans have a responsibility to help Iraq.
 
"If we leave, a civil will occur and an Islamic fascist movement will come into power."

And in your vast 16 years of life how have you seen that? Crystal ball? The vast majority of Iraqis want peace and stability. The elections have certainly shown that. They'll work.

"If we stay, we're in for a long while of coalition deaths and bitter hatred of the USA. The terrorist cause is fueled by disillusioned Iraqis and muslims everywhere. It's impossible to kill them all off with coalition troops."

We do not commit ourselves to military actions based on how well we are liked. Deaths will occur yes. Avoiding death is not a viable means to determine your nation's course of actions. Insurgent forces are not anywhere near so vast as you seem to imply and it is never our intention to "kill them all off"

"So we need Europeans to step up and help in the Iraq crisis, and that's what it is. We have some allies, but most lack the courage to commit their military to face Islamic fascism. But they can still help, they can still help us train these guys, because the only way you can win is to speak to the people, and to do that you must BE the people."

And Europeans are so much more like Iraqis than the US is? You've wandered away from whatever point you were trying to make there.

"Of course, the president of the United States needs to reach out to europeans"

He has and got diddly for it except from Britain.

"but so does Europe need to help us."

Yeah they want in on the party now that the worst of it is over.

"Afterall, if Islam should fall to the fundamentalist cause, it will certainly seek the destruction of the west."

Too simplistic and extremely unlikely. There are very powerful Islamic nations that will never be taken over by fundamentalists as Saudi Arabia and Egypt have proven many, many times just to name two.
 
Chocobo_Blitzer said:
The goverment can be in place, but how will it survive without military men to protect it? We have around 5,000 professional Iraqis trained, correct? We really need to speed it up somehow.
Click to expand...

You missed the Infrastructure part. Public Works, Police, Public Services and military. Just because elections are held and offices filled doesn't mean we are done.
 
en....the best way i think is to let the whole world join the rebuilding of Iraq.....more nations, more man power, more money to rebuild iraq...


i am still wondering why EU dont come into Iraq with U.S now, wut are they waiting for...
 
Charge 7:

"And in your vast 16 years of life how have you seen that? Crystal ball? The vast majority of Iraqis want peace and stability. The elections have certainly shown that. They'll work."

How rude, I come to these forums to get informed, to watch debate, and to be apart of the debate- yet you deem it necessary to criticize me because of my youth. You're a real winner. Nevertheless, I'll still try to debate your points, despite your vast intellectual superiorty.


If we were to leave, the terrorist and their suppliers would kick up the aggression and funding, I don't think the current Iraqi defense forces could sustain the guarilla onslaught for long. The people may want peace, but they will not form a human wall to stop Islamic fascist from gaining control. Remember I'm talking about if we LEAVE RIGHT NOW. Not as we stay. You seem to be confusing me with some election naysayer.

"We do not commit ourselves to military actions based on how well we are liked. Deaths will occur yes. Avoiding death is not a viable means to determine your nation's course of actions. Insurgent forces are not anywhere near so vast as you seem to imply and it is never our intention to "kill them all off""

I know that, I could care less what some guy in paris thinks of our military actions. And I except death in military actions. You seem to be confusing me with some liberal pacifist. Wrong. But you shouldn't underestimate the enemy forces, they aren't crippled just because the election was a loss for them. They still "control" cities like Ramadi, Mosul.... and you say our intention isn't to "kill them all off"? I hope you're referring to the "all", because I know that's impossible. Cripple them to a point where they aren't capable of operations. At least that's what I thought the military was trying to do....?

"And Europeans are so much more like Iraqis than the US is? You've wandered away from whatever point you were trying to make there"

I thought about re-typeing that bid, as it might seem confusing. But I had hoped for a little imagination... I guess not. Military forces still have a part to play until more Iraqis get trained, Europe is too cowardly to help with military forces, but they could help with.....

"He has and got diddly for it except from Britain"

I typed that bit for foreigners on this forum, but apparently some americans too have little tolerance for anything resembling criticism.

"Yeah they want in on the party now that the worst of it is over. "

Do they? I havn't heard of anything regarding offers as of late.

"Too simplistic and extremely unlikely. There are very powerful Islamic nations that will never be taken over by fundamentalists as Saudi Arabia and Egypt have proven many, many times just to name two."

It is rather basic and farfetched, but your optimism of the Islamic nations is not shared by me.

03USMC: You mean that, as we continue rebuilding those said services, the public support for the Iraqi government will rise and the terrorist will have little support, so little in fact they wont be operational? That's the idea of course, but I don't see how the military wing is going to get strong anytime soon without... European help....
 
The only reasons the stay behind allies want in now is money. They want contractors in Iraq so they can get a piece of the rebuilding pie. IMO
 
sigh.....do u want to give a group of ppl freedom and die for them without getting some payments or rewards for urself....

so does the government.....

(most of time) leaders are not stupid enough to do things that will not benifit their own country....
 
Sexybeast said:
sigh.....do u want to give a group of ppl freedom and die for them without getting some payments or rewards for urself....

so does the government.....

(most of time) leaders are not stupid enough to do things that will not benifit their own country....
Click to expand...

The "reward" is to stop Islamic fascism from hijacking Iraq. They threaten us all, not just the big, bad, USA.
 
Ooh sorry if I stepped on your tender little ego there. You accuse me of confusion. Could it possibly be because your piece was poorly written?

Nowhere did you state if we leave _now_. How was I to determine that? Borrow your crystal ball? We aren't going to leave now so tell me what was the point you were trying to make? You seem confused more than a little bit yourself.

Strong Islamic nations standing up to terrorists far fetched? Ask the Saudies what just happened there with the terrorists they delt with. Not optimistic - very, very realistic.
 
Rebuild the damn country so it doesn't look like a slum and let a good government take over and then let US authority have no more control over Iraq
 
many arabian nations joined Gulf war in 1991, to help defeat Saddam and its invasion...


did any of them support U.S this time?

this is not a popular war among muslims everywhere,
U.S must proceeds carefully..otherwise, there may really be a real jihad(holy war) coming.
 
Chocobo_Blitzer said:
Charge 7:

"And in your vast 16 years of life how have you seen that? Crystal ball? The vast majority of Iraqis want peace and stability. The elections have certainly shown that. They'll work."

How rude, I come to these forums to get informed, to watch debate, and to be apart of the debate- yet you deem it necessary to criticize me because of my youth. You're a real winner. Nevertheless, I'll still try to debate your points, despite your vast intellectual superiorty.
Click to expand...

good point and well fought!
 
Sexybeast said:
sigh.....do u want to give a group of ppl freedom and die for them without getting some payments or rewards for urself....

so does the government.....

(most of time) leaders are not stupid enough to do things that will not benifit their own country....
Click to expand...

The US and UK along with other Allies conducted the war. They sent troops. Those troops fought died and bled.

Now you tell me why Germany, France, Russia and the others want to get involved now.

And don't tell me cause they care about the Iraqi People.
 
en.....i dont think they wanna get involved in it yet
any sources?


and do U.S government go into iraq totally for the reason to liberate iraqi ppl...is U.S govenrment really that good? or they want to get some benifits fot themselves too?

oil? control middle east? kick out russian influences?
 
Sexybeast said:
en....U.S really needs more ally (useful ally, not those allies giving spiritual support) on this issue
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter if a country sends 10 troops or 10,000. They chose to stand by our side and show support. Poland for example doesn't have allot of troops in Iraq but they have their best unit aiding us.
 
if america were to leave now, sure there would be an inter-islamic war... i think the sunnis would fight the shia's, and the kurds would be thrown in the middle of it all over again...
iran would support the south, whilst saudis would support the sunnis ...

p.s. crystal balls arnt needed to predict that the place would turn into another dictatorship or theocracy... just look around... what mid east country is a democracy other than israel?

when americans leave, some iranian puppet like sistani will rise to power start another blood libel and we got iran/afghanistan all over again.

the best solution would be 1) divide the land into 3 oe 2) nuke and start over again. thats if were talkingin the near future...
if we had time on our hands, which we dont, then there might be a chance of the iraqis becoming less primitive and more westernised, but if it took europe hundreds of years, then dont experct it to happen in your great grand childrens life time.
 
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