How expensive does gas have to get? Alternatives?? - Page 2




View Poll Results :How expensive will gasoline have to get??
$3.00 per gallon 2 8.33%
$4.00 per gallon 4 16.67%
$5.00 per gallon 5 20.83%
$6.00 per gallon 3 12.50%
$7.00 per gallon 0 0%
$8.00 per gallon 0 0%
$9.00 per gallon 0 0%
$10.00 per gallon 1 4.17%
More than $10.00 per gallon 2 8.33%
Inevitable Alt Fuel Boom very soon if price remains $2.00+ 7 29.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Boots
 
September 14th, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Fossil fuel based home heating prices are going to get ugly, no doubt about it. It seems to me that this is yet another arena where alternatives ought to be able to make a play at the market. It would seem that a refined vegetable oil based replacement should burn the comparably to heating oil. If not that, there could be any number of other alternates. Natural gas systems would likely be pretty forgiving with a well designed alternative as well. So conceivably, there would seem to be good alternatives available in the home heating as well.

I think it is quite correct that the biggest obstacle is logistical. Great for me, I convert my car over to burning Ethanol or Hydrogen or whatever. Where can I fill up?? I think that implementation through gas lines to homes would be less difficiult certainly. You simply change out what you are pumping into the entire network of pipes more than likely you are good to go. Depends on the alternative of course.

Ultimately, at some point the world is going to run out of oil. There is a finite quantity of the stuff. The biggest reason that the USA tends to avoid pumping its own oil is two-fold. 1.) We would rather let OPEC nations and others bleed their own supplies dry and save our own for later. 2.) OPEC nations can give you the oil cheaper in most cases. But in the long run, no matter how it is managed and no matter how much new exploration is done, the supply most definitely will run out. If the oil companies are smart, they build the logistical groundwork for alternatives well ahead of time. As far as I can tell, most of their current work in the alternative fuel field is a token PR campaign to show that they care. Kinda like Phillip Morris doing anti-smoking ads. Much of it is useful certainly, but it isn't in their best interests to go too far with it. Case in point: Solar power is unlikely to become a viable and practical alternative to petrol-based fuel. Same with bigger and better wind-based electrical plants. So these things are very safe for them to focus research on, and it makes them money on the side anyways. Neither source is a viable replacement to stick in gasoline burning combustion engines afterall. (Most people aren't going to want to buy a whole new car just so they can plug into the world of alternate fuels.)

As far as I know, the easiest alternative to implement would be either Ethanol or Methanol alcohols. The overall engine and car modifications required would be easier than any other alternate fuel conversion that I'm aware of. Backyard mechanics pull it off regularly for the county fair Tractor Pull and other such events. Alcohol fuels are also better for your car's engine in the long run anyways. It pollutes far far less. So long as Ethanol prices can be kept reasonable, people would not have to "give up their love affair with the automobile" anytime soon. They are extracted from Corn and Wheat, so the number one supplier of the stuff would be the good ol' USA, and it would give the farmers something profitable to do with their grain surplusses. And lastly we might just consider that NASCAR might be onto something since they burn straight Ethanol currently. Indy cars burn Methanol. And consider that Ethanol and Methanol are much much easier to make than gasoline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_refinery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_ethanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel

And that is just one alternative.
September 14th, 2005  
king_garwal
 
Alt Fuel Boom

Mainly because in America, where I'm from, electric powered car sales are up 30% from last year. How would you like to get 75 mpg? I would.
September 14th, 2005  
5.56X45mm
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewie_nz
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm
The problem isn't implementing alternative fuels. It's OPEC and (yes once again) liberals. The USA shouldn't be needing to buy her oil from foriegn sources nor does she need to cripple her own production of it. The Eco-Terrorist of the USA have closed down our Oil Refineries for the last thiry years. And with in these last thiry years. We haven't built, upgraded, or opened one up. Also, known locations of oil in and around the USA aren't tapped. And that's also hurting the us. We, the people of America must stop dealing with the Commie Pinkos of the environment and the oil kings of the Middle East and produce our own Texas Gold.

Luis (5.56X45MM)

PS - There is Oil in Alaska, the cast of Florida, and the Gulf Coast of Mexico. It's just sitting there. Let's get it before the hippie commie scumbags ruin it for us.

jeez you make me laugh sometimes.


once again, a liberal is someone who's politic's are in the middle, neither left nor right wing in their out look

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

however, US usage of this word as an insult has twisted it to such an extent that there is now an off spin;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_liberalism

now really, the only reason i am getting pissy over this is that i would quite happily refer to my self as a liberal, as my personal politics are center-left.

cool?


now back to topic, the oil companies surely aren't going to let any nasty, profit eating alternative fuels out onto the market untill they have no choice left...thats why you see companies such as BP spending alot of money on solar research etc etc

and in a similar thread to this i posted links to "bio diesel" sites...thats the vegetable oil fuel alternative

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...+diesel#138411
Well, in the grand old US of A. LIBERAL means someone on the extreme left. Not the middle. We call them moderates. And someone on the right side is called a conservative.
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Boots
September 14th, 2005  
5.56X45mm
 
 
I drive a 2002 Ford F-150 Pickup Truck. I usually spend about $40-50 US dollars to fill her up. I don't buy the 97 Octane stuff, just the regular 87 octane gas. Currently the price is floating around $2.89-$2.95 for regular. That's here in Miami Florida, USA. The other reason why gas is so high in some parts of the USA is because that some States of crazy enviromental laws and the gas must have certain chemicals in it. I checked the Internet at GAs Prices by MSN. And the cheapest price in the USA is at $1.95. That's right $1.95. State Taxes also have something to do with it. And as for me ditching my Truck and buying some (being politicaly correct for thos ethat can't stomic it on this board) four cylinders FORIEGN MADE CARS. I won't. I'll contnue to by American and continue to drive Trucks. Small cars suck. PERIOD. You can't take anything in them, you aren't safe in them, and you aren't comfortable in them. In my truck. I see over cars, I can take my truck out into the woods, not get stuck and if needed. I can drive in some flooded areas unlike those little plastic wonders of Asia.

In the end, the USA needs to tell the Hippies to SHUT UP! Build Refineries, oil pipe lines, and Drilling Sites. And lastly, stop buying from OPEC.

Luis (5.56X45MM)

PS - I like Steel for my trucks instead of plastic. I like them AMERICAN MADE. And WHO THE HELL MADE OPEC THE OIL TSARS!
September 14th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
pretty much god....(if you want to look at it that way)


as the oil is under their countries. if you dont like it, find an alternative. there are plenty out there. and as one of the european posters hase already said, their paying $10 a gallon NOW. so i find it funny that it's like the end of the world that gas prices have gone up.


there are plenty of ways of shrinking your fuel bill, smaller more efficiant cars would be one way (and no, a f-150 doesn't count), better public transport is another. and alternative fuels are the big kahuna



one last thing, your usage of the world Liberal is incorrect.

Quote:
Liberalism defines itself as guaranteeing, or at least maximising, individual freedom. However, that is a political claim rather than an objective fact, and not necessarily the most important aspect of the ideology, or of liberal societies. Under liberal principles, the form of society is determined by the outcome of competitive processes in a defined framework. The state, according to liberal ideology, should guarantee the process, but not interfere with the outcome: most liberals therefore see a limited role for government. In the economic sphere, liberalism advocates the free market as the ordering principle, and the production of goods and services by competing entrepreneurs. Liberal societies assign social status and advantage, by competition among talents. In politics, the early liberal principles of free expression and religious tolerance have evolved into the liberal-democratic principle of competitive multi-party political pluralism. Liberal pluralism is generally restricted to those who respect democracy and human rights.
September 15th, 2005  
5.56X45mm
 
 
It still doesn't apply to the USA. LIBERALS ARE SOCIALIST!!!!!

Expect that fact. LIBERALS ARE BAD IN AMERICA. Maybe the term "Liberal" means something different in you country. But in America. It means Marxism, Socialism, and Communism. And guess what. The American left and it's party. The Democratic Party is the left.
September 15th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm
It still doesn't apply to the USA. LIBERALS ARE SOCIALIST!!!!!

Expect that fact. LIBERALS ARE BAD IN AMERICA. Maybe the term "Liberal" means something different in you country. But in America. It means Marxism, Socialism, and Communism. And guess what. The American left and it's party. The Democratic Party is the left.

right....so they're democrats then.


the ACCEPTED usuage for the term liberal is for someone who's policies are centerist. case closed, thats all she wrote
September 15th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
Getting back to the topic...

I was watching a show on the History Channel tonight about sugar. Interestingly enough that when the energy crisis of the 1970s hit Brazil went whole hog on developing alternative energy resources. Guess what? They've succeeded! They've gone from an 80% reliance on foreign oil to a 10% reliance by turning to sugar. From sugar they make ethanol - so much of it that their cars often run on nothing else and it costs them less than half as much as gasoline at the pump.

In the US we don't have so many places we can grow sugar cane, however, we can grow sugar beets almost anywhere. Did you know that 25% of the world's sugar comes from sugar beets? In the US we make ethanol from corn which requires a more involved and ultimately more expensive process than converting it from sugar. We should be growing sugar beets like mad.
September 15th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charge 7
Getting back to the topic...

I was watching a show on the History Channel tonight about sugar. Interestingly enough that when the energy crisis of the 1970s hit Brazil went whole hog on developing alternative energy resources. Guess what? They've succeeded! They've gone from an 80% reliance on foreign oil to a 10% reliance by turning to sugar. From sugar they make ethanol - so much of it that their cars often run on nothing else and it costs them less than half as much as gasoline at the pump.

In the US we don't have so many places we can grow sugar cane, however, we can grow sugar beets almost anywhere. Did you know that 25% of the world's sugar comes from sugar beets? In the US we make ethanol from corn which requires a more involved and ultimately more expensive process than converting it from sugar. We should be growing sugar beets like mad.

new zealand is looking at ethanol production at the moment....with our massive dairy industry we could more than half or relience on fossil fuels by using ethanol as a fuel diluter. same horse power and octane....but bugger all actual petrol in it
September 15th, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charge 7
Getting back to the topic...

I was watching a show on the History Channel tonight about sugar. Interestingly enough that when the energy crisis of the 1970s hit Brazil went whole hog on developing alternative energy resources. Guess what? They've succeeded! They've gone from an 80% reliance on foreign oil to a 10% reliance by turning to sugar. From sugar they make ethanol - so much of it that their cars often run on nothing else and it costs them less than half as much as gasoline at the pump.

In the US we don't have so many places we can grow sugar cane, however, we can grow sugar beets almost anywhere. Did you know that 25% of the world's sugar comes from sugar beets? In the US we make ethanol from corn which requires a more involved and ultimately more expensive process than converting it from sugar. We should be growing sugar beets like mad.
Corn and wheat are a bit less efficient than sugarcane, but you can use them for Ethanol production as well. If you dig through that agonizingly long Wikipedia article I posted (the third one), you discover that even extracting alchohol from these sources is significantly more energy efficient than petrolium refining for gasoline. I didn't think of it, but sugar beets are growable almost anywhere like you said, and would likely see the same level of efficiency as sugarcane in Brazil. Besides that, there are certainly SOME areas of the USA that can readily produce sugarcane. Hawaii for instance. They could easily mirror Brazil and produce more than enough ethanol for themselves. Not sure whether the Gulf Coast and Florida can readily grow sugarcane, but I believe they can. The main thing is running with what you've got. Sugar beets are grown in great quantity even in the most desolate portions of the USA. Wyoming, Utah and Idaho grow them in the deserts. Then there is our immense surplus of corn, wheat and perhaps even rice that can also be used for ethanol production. In fact, there is potential for most types of biomass wastes to be used for alchohol production.