House passes HR 2956 (223-201) Redeployment from Iraq Act

Chief Bones

Forums Grumpy Old Man
On July 12th the House passed HR 2956, the Responsible Redeployment from Iraq Act, by a vote 223-201. The legislation, sponsored by Armed Services Committee Chairman Ike Skelton, would begin the responsible redeployment of U.S. troops within 120 days and complete redeployment by April 1, 2008. The President would have to report to Congress why troops should remain in Iraq for limited purposes such as to fight terrorism or to train Iraqi forces.

> 10 Democrats joined 191 Republicans and voted ‘NO’ on the bill:
Barrow (GA)
Boren (OK)
Carney (PA)
Holden (PA)
Kucinich (OH)
Snyder (AR)
Taylor (MS)
Ellsworth(IN)
Marshall (GA)
Matheson (UT)

> 4 Republicans joined 219 Democrats and voted ‘YES’ on the bill:
Jones (NC)
Duncan (TN)
Emerson (MO)
Gilchrist (MD)
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IF/WHEN the bill goes to the President for his ‘chop’ … GW will slash his signature across the cover letter section of the bill marked “VETO”

… and …

send it back to the House and Senate where neither the Democrats (or) the Republicans will have the intestinal fortitude to over-rule him by the required 2/3 majority (politics as usual).

Because I can’t see this resolution being signed into law, the ONLY reason for the Democrats and disgruntled Republicans to be pushing this type of resolution, has the stench of posturing politicians … even the dumbest Representative or Senator can figure this one out (so can we) … politicians are (again), trying to make points with the voters through ‘POSTURE’ instead of ‘SUBSTANCE‘.

IF there were any possibility that passing these resolutions would help hasten the return of our troops (and NOT result in the rapid fall of Iraq to terrorist forces), I would be %110 in favor of the resolution. Since no possibility exists (at this time), I am NOT in favor of any deadline (I am completely dead-set against this posturing deadline also).

Even though most Democrats, many Republicans and a majority of the American citizens want the Iraq War to end tomorrow, I am in favor of waiting until the final report in August is released (whether the troop increase is working), before putting in place a Withdrawal Date and forcing the President‘s hand - I would wish for my representatives (Republican and Democrat alike), to do the same.

Less than 2 months ago, our politicians agreed to wait till the final report in August before they would move to place a withdrawal date on a piece of legislation designed to force the President’s hand … looks like they couldn’t wait.


THIS IS NOT THE BEST TIME FOR A FIRM WITHDRAWAL DATE -

IT CAN ONLY BRING HARM TO OUR TROOPS AND TO THE CITIZENS OF IRAQ.


However … It is time to inform the Iraqi government that our patience/ support is not inexhaustible - they MUST begin meeting benchmarks (or) they are going to find themselves holding the bag with NO support from the United States.
 
They're just ITCHING for the Democrats to take the Presidency...

So are most Americans, check the polls if you don't believe me. I was reading that the GOP is headhunting candidates for the 2016 election, as thats first chance predicted they'll have to recapture the White House. Just look at the pathetic bunch of eyesores they dredged up for 2008. Truly, the bottom of the GOP barrel. All the good GOP candidates are lying low or are switching to independents.

Chief Bones

Iraq is lost.

I am not talking military, I am talking politically. But as long as there is no political solution there will be no military victory either, even the DOD had admitted that one. The small chance we had to keep the sovereign state of Iraq was blown by the NEOCONS uber-incompetance in 2003.

That ship has sailed. Its never coming back.

So with the political solution now gone, all you are going to have groups and subgroups fighting each other (not to mention us, the fact they all hate us is about the one thing they do agree on). You cannot control such mobs its like trying to herd cats.

The regional bloodbath you wish to avoid is unavoidable, there are only to real choices

1. Lots of civilians Deaths
2. Lots of Civilians Deaths AND lots of US Servicemen Deaths.

I'll choose the lesser of two evils.
 
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So are most Americans, check the polls if you don't believe me. I was reading that the GOP is headhunting candidates for the 2016 election, as thats first chance predicted they'll have to recapture the White House. Just look at the pathetic bunch of eyesores they dredged up for 2008. Truly, the bottom of the GOP barrel. All the good GOP candidates are lying low or are switching to independents.

Chief Bones

Iraq is lost.

I am not talking military, I am talking politically. But as long as there is no political solution there will be no military victory either, even the DOD had admitted that one. The small chance we had to keep the sovereign state of Iraq was blown by the NEOCONS uber-incompetance in 2003.

That ship has sailed. Its never coming back.

So with the political solution now gone, all you are going to have groups and subgroups fighting each other (not to mention us, the fact they all hate us is about the one thing they do agree on). You cannot control such mobs its like trying to herd cats.

The regional bloodbath you wish to avoid is unavoidable, there are only to real choices

1. Lots of civilians Deaths
2. Lots of Civilians Deaths AND lots of US Servicemen Deaths.

I'll choose the lesser of two evils.
Because most Americans must be too ignorant to realize what will happen with a deadline of withdrawal...
 
I don't see how Iraq is going to becoming a terrorists training camp when we withdraw, It already is. Except with US troops there they have live targets to practice against. Our presence there is generating a lot of this animosity towards us and towards the Iraqi government. It is time for a new strategy, one that at least has a chance of working and thats re-deployment. At this rate the surge is going to become long term. With the Iraqi government only making PROGRESS on 8 out of 18 goals its time to let the Iraqis deal with Iraq and Iran.

Withdrawal tomorrow please.

Worst case: Iraq collapse completley and they kill each other until a dictator rises (Al-Sadr most likely) and brings some sort of stability.

Best case: the Iraqi government succeeds and establishes a true Arab democracy in the middle east.

Anything is better than whats going on now.
 
Because most Americans must be too ignorant to realize what will happen with a deadline of withdrawal...

I see, the vast majority of the country is ignorant and your're enlightened. I don't think its the country is the one acting ignorant here. Espicially since the past 4 years we have been trying Bush's way and it has failed at every turn. At some point you are going to have to stop trusting the Government's rhetoric.

Let me tell you this. This government keeps telling us that everything is Black and White, IT ISN'T. Its about a million shades of gray. There isnt a 'US' vs 'THEM' like in the cold war. Its 'US' vs them, them, them, them... Secondly the various 'thems' hate each other. This isnt basketball where you have 2 teams facing each other. Its more like Track where you have multiple opponents each trying to win it for themselves.

And meanwhile al-Qaeda has already found a new home, not in Iraq like Bush keeps insisting, but in Pakistan. But wait, isn't Pakistan supposed to be on our side? Thats the dirty little secret Bush want to keep hidden. The Islamic countries 'allied' to us are actually more dangerous than those we are fighting against.

Bush's idea of progress...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUu8iDknR9U
 
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I see, the vast majority of the country is ignorant and your're enlightened. I don't think its the country is the one acting ignorant here. Espicially since the past 4 years we have been trying Bush's way and it has failed at every turn. At some point you are going to have to stop trusting the Government's rhetoric.

I suppose you've been to Iraq? I suppose you've already read the Progress Report not due until August, that will ultimately informt he U.S. people if the troop increase has worked? When I was in country, I worked 4 days on, 1 day off. That means, I worked 4 days straight, usually with damn little, if any sleep. Now, the troops work one day on, one day off due to the troop surge. More troopers means more rest for each. We were severely overstretched. Personally, through my experiences, I honestly believe the troop surge was a smart move. If nothing else, more troops in combat means more combat vets. The knowledge that comes from each and every salty combat vet is invaluable. Right now, 75% of the Marine Corps has been to Iraq (and most have seen combat). That makes our military a force to be reckoned with, especially now.

If the United States has to fight another war, its not going to go like this one. The U.S. military is going to be even more efficient, and even more deadly as it is full of men and women who really know what they need to do because they've done it before. There's no way to train for war; however, war is pretty damn good training in itself.
 
I suppose you've been to Iraq? I suppose you've already read the Progress Report not due until August, that will ultimately informt he U.S. people if the troop increase has worked? When I was in country, I worked 4 days on, 1 day off. That means, I worked 4 days straight, usually with damn little, if any sleep. Now, the troops work one day on, one day off due to the troop surge. More troopers means more rest for each. We were severely overstretched. Personally, through my experiences, I honestly believe the troop surge was a smart move. If nothing else, more troops in combat means more combat vets. The knowledge that comes from each and every salty combat vet is invaluable. Right now, 75% of the Marine Corps has been to Iraq (and most have seen combat). That makes our military a force to be reckoned with, especially now.

If the United States has to fight another war, its not going to go like this one. The U.S. military is going to be even more efficient, and even more deadly as it is full of men and women who really know what they need to do because they've done it before. There's no way to train for war; however, war is pretty damn good training in itself.

Well said but I wonder if our leftist european friend can comprehend what you just said!
 
a new approach is needed in Iraq, repeating the same mistakes over and over does not = success.


and as usual it's the troops on the ground that bear the brunt



as much as Americans hate to back down, you have to admit that it's not working, and no one has any workable idea of how to finish things.


IMO the US should've smashed the taliban/al quida where ever they hid (especially northern pakistan....where the taliban began)
 
The military can't smash the taliban and al queda in northern pakistan due to treaties we made with the Pakistani government and the various tribes in that region. The deal was, the US and Pakistani militaries will stay out of that region, as long as the tribes "police their own" and keep our enemies out there; however, they have not held there part of the bargain, so I agree, we should go in and smash them. If they don't like it, bummer, they shouldn't have broken their side of the agreement.

However, Pakistan is one of our most important allies in the region and it would be a terrible loss if we broke our political tie with them.
 
a new approach is needed in Iraq, repeating the same mistakes over and over does not = success.

and as usual it's the troops on the ground that bear the brunt

as much as Americans hate to back down, you have to admit that it's not working, and no one has any workable idea of how to finish things.

IMO the US should've smashed the taliban/al quida where ever they hid (especially northern pakistan....where the taliban began)

The new approach is this new surge. The troop surge s just kicked in and has come into effect. We'll see by this September it is working or not.

But imagine if one party in the States was saying the same thing during the world war II that the D-Day landing failed and we should leave Europe to Hitler and fascist forces.
 
no. the new surge is just repeating what didn't work last time



or the time before.




the key to defeating an insurgency is winning hearts and minds while the insurgency loses the support of the people.


now when you have incidents as big as abu graihb, and cases of rape an murder...you have already lost.


look at other insurgencies from recent history....especially northern ireland...and see how hard they are to resolve.


especially when religion is a factor. superior weapons/more troops does NOT win these types of wars
 
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