House Democrats Pass Healthcare Reform

[wolfen]

I still stand by my original statement.......there's nothing wrong with the health care in this country, yuo want reform? Change the rich conglomerate executives who own and operate the INSURANCE COMPANIES that are running the health care system instead of yanking the money out of MY wallet to bail them out!

in 47 years I have NEVER seen a doctor that didn't want to help a patient, but I've seen all the insurance companies and conglomerate executives that run the health care system that won't help somebody just cause they are poor.

Dig Deep America, the problem we face is WAY DEEPER than it appears!

 

[Bacara]

BACARA - ...........
a lot of poor choices in life???
like not graduating high school >> not everyone has the possibility of attending a grade school that teaches the 3Rs in a manner that the student learns.

not going to some sort of higher education >> not all students have a chance to get higher learning due to the finances of themselves or their parents.

welfare is a good thing for a limited amount of time >> some individuals will be on welfare for their entire lives {due to lack of education and the inability to get an education}

Also the rich people vs average people bull crap only divides us more, in a society there will always be the wealthy and the poor, get over it. >>>> this is the attitude that will ALWAYS divide us as a nation. Lording it over the have-nots and NOT understanding the fact that there ARE reasons why the status quo can NOT be addressed by many Americans, only creates more dissent and unrest between the various economic strata. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

EVERYONE has a ability to graduate high school, and everyone has the ability to go to school, such as scholarships, grants, and student loans, my parents arent going to help me get through school, so guess what i working to get scholarships, and then i going to get student loans to fill the rest, the generation, which im apart of, is a generation of excuses, and im guilty too. Also my parents make too much money for me to get any grants.

 

[mmarsh]

I still stand by my original statement.......there's nothing wrong with the health care in this country, yuo want reform? Change the rich conglomerate executives who own and operate the INSURANCE COMPANIES that are running the health care system instead of yanking the money out of MY wallet to bail them out!

in 47 years I have NEVER seen a doctor that didn't want to help a patient, but I've seen all the insurance companies and conglomerate executives that run the health care system that won't help somebody just cause they are poor.

Dig Deep America, the problem we face is WAY DEEPER than it appears!

But thats exactly what we tried to do with this HCR Bill. Nobody is questioning the quality of care, we are questioning the costs+fairness of it.

The problem is this: as long as HMO remain FOR PROFIT there will always be a incentive to cheat. The private insurance company model is fundamentally flawed because of it. It is simply cheaper for the HMO to fight lawsuits in court than to actually pay for treatment. Thats why the GOP is so hot for TORT reform, because that way no only can the HMOs limit the damages they face in lawsuits and still not actually pay for the treatment.

HMOs are also monopoly that is not subject to anti-trust lawsuits (something thats about to change) and therefore they make up their own rules with no outside interference.

Thats why Wellpoint can raise premiums 40% in a single year because no one can stop them and there is nowhere else to go as a alternative. The mob in NYC used to have "the commission". This was the heads of the 5 mafia families who would all sit together and decide policy. HMOs do exactly the same thing. They make agreements with one another of how to gouge the customer without directly competing against each other. The public option would have given the HMOs the one thing they feared the most, a real competitor who wasn't in their little boys club. Thats why the GOP went all out to kill it.

The advantage of a government system is that its not for profit ergo its got no bottom line to protect. Therefore there is no cheating and no lawsuits either.

I witnessed firsthand a HMO call a doctor friend of mine who was visiting me in NYC and tell HIM not to operate on a patient because the insurance company was refusing to pay for the surgery. This was on someone who had been injured on a construction accident and was actually at risk of losing his eye. The HMO actually preferred this man go blind then they have to pay for it.

But thats what these idiots in the teaparty don't get. They would rather just fight Obama for the sake of him being a black man (which many of their small minds cannot comprehend) rather than look at what hes trying to do. They are fighting to keep the status quo and the CEOs at the HMOs couldnt be happier to have it that way. The fact is Obama healthcare is no different that those plans of Republicans, most notably Mitt Romney when he was governor of MA.

Look at this way. The United States is the only major industrialized country in the western world that has no Universal healthcare AT ALL.

QUESTION: Why do people think no other country wishes to adopt our HC model?

Answer: BECAUSE IT SUCKS. Its like the sinking of the TITANIC. The lifeboats are only available to those who can afford it, if you are poor, then you are left to drown.

 

[wolfen]

mmarsh, this sentence> The problem is this: as long as HMO remain FOR PROFIT there will always be a incentive to cheat.

you posted is one of the top 2 reasons I oppose the current health care bill that was just signed.

 

[Chukpike]

I witnessed firsthand a HMO call a doctor friend of mine who was visiting me in NYC and tell HIM not to operate on a patient because the insurance company was refusing to pay for the surgery. This was on someone who had been injured on a construction accident and was actually at risk of losing his eye. The HMO actually preferred this man go blind then they have to pay for it.

Any one actually believe this is a true story? An Insurance Company is going to deny coverage to an on the job accident in New York.

I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. Guess this is why mmarsh hates to supply sources, much easier just to make stuff up to fit his needs.:lol:

First thing is you have a Doctor openly discussing someone else's medical treatment in front of someone not involved. I will just let others decide how plausible this is.

I do believe that insurers do try to limit their costs and refuse treatment, I just can't see it happening in what is clearly a work related state disability insurance claim.

 

[George]

But thats what these idiots in the teaparty don't get. They would rather just fight Obama for the sake of him being a black man (which many of their small minds cannot comprehend) rather than look at what hes trying to do. The fact is Obama healthcare is no different that those plans of Republicans, most notably Mitt Romney when he was governor of MA.

A black man? Grow up, do you really think Republicans would support this if Ms. Clinton was Prez? If you do you have a short memory! And how about the Party's trashing each others simular S.S. reforms a few yrs ago?

 

[-- Dusty]

welfare is a good thing for a limited amount of time >> some individuals will be on welfare for their entire lives {due to lack of education and the inability to get an education}

Chief I'll take into consideration that you're merely generalizing. Because no one can really justify saying something like that IF they considered the individual cases.

My mother was on welfare for 14 years, then the doctors found out why her health was always bad- she had a non-cancerous brain tumor. After she had surgery to remove it, she was on welfare for another 6 years until she was finally accepted by Social Security.

Welfare is there for a reason. Some people abuse it, but you will find those kind of people everywhere you go.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Chief I'll take into consideration that you're merely generalizing. Because no one can really justify saying something like that IF they considered the individual cases.

My mother was on welfare for 14 years, then the doctors found out why her health was always bad- she had a non-cancerous brain tumor. After she had surgery to remove it, she was on welfare for another 6 years until she was finally accepted by Social Security.

Welfare is there for a reason. Some people abuse it, but you will find those kind of people everywhere you go.

Chief was DEFENDING welfare. Bacara was the one who said that bit about it only being good for a short amount of time.

 

[RayManKiller3]

"In most cases, abortions aren't medically necessary, so why should they HAVE to be covered in the first place?"quote Rob Henderson MD.

Well Dr. Rob what happens to the women when it is medically necessary to save the womens life. I guess the democrats compromise and let her die.:smile:.

Not only a musician but now he knows medicine. Don't suppose you could post the stats for what percentage are considered medically necessary Doctor.:wink:

As you know, no Republican voted for the Bill so the compromise is with Democrats.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#By_gender.2C_party.2C_and_region
Read it and weap Chuckpile, I agree with rob.

Abortion should NOT be covered unless it is seriously a medical problem. If women don't want babies so soon, they should try tying their tubes or having their "loved ones" get a vasectumy, I believe it is reversible. Or can can actually pay for it themselves!

Personally, I don't want to be responsible for some 15-20 year old girl getting pregnant and paying for HER (and whoever was that helped her) stupidity. If it was due to rape and can be proven as such, then I won't mind it. I am against abortion btw, but don't think it should be illegal as well. I will feel like I helped that girl/women kill a potential child. God knows how many einsteins (probably spelled wrong) was killed before they can show how successful they will be.

On the matter of health care reform, I do believe it is necessary. Our current health care is plain stupid and is the main cause of our deficits. We can stand idly by and watch as we go bankrupt. Universal Health care would be the way to go

 

[mmarsh]

A black man? Grow up, do you really think Republicans would support this if Ms. Clinton was Prez? If you do you have a short memory! And how about the Party's trashing each others simular S.S. reforms a few yrs ago?

George

I absolutely believe that Obama skin color has alot (not everything, but a lot) to do with it. There is plenty of evidence to suggest it.

1. They didn't even give him a chance, the far right-wing was protesting Obama even before he took the oath of office. Essentially they took one look at him, saw he was a different color, and boom! their mind was made up.

2. The fact that the radical right is made up mostly of older white people. You can bring up the odd black or Hispanic tea-partier but they represent a very small portion of the movement and they also don't represent the views of the majority of blacks. They are a small fringe minority who in my opinion seem to be suffering an self-identity crisis.

3. The fact that at some of these tea party conventions are beginning to resemble Ku Klux Klan rallies with the imagery and racists remarks. which isn't really surprising as because many of the White Supremacists groups have joined the Tea-party.

WOLFEN

Perhaps I misunderstood then, if so I apologize.

Are you saying you were against it because you'd prefer a single payer system instead? I certainly agree with the idea of a UHC system, the reason I supported the bill was because its a first step after decades of HMOS stalling reform the ball is now rolling. In my book, Obama gets credit for that, not for the actual bill itself.

Its a bit like Lincoln, Lincoln didnt give civil rights to blacks but he got the ball rolling when he freed the slaves.

I hope future presidents will continue reforming healthcare so that in 10-20 years or so we will have what we really need a true universal healthcare system.

 

[George]

George

I absolutely believe that Obama skin color has alot (not everything, but a lot) to do with it. There is plenty of evidence to suggest it.

1. They didn't even give him a chance, the far right-wing was protesting Obama even before he took the oath of office. Essentially they took one look at him, saw he was a different color, and boom! their mind was made up.

2. The fact that the radical right is made up mostly of older white people. You can bring up the odd black or Hispanic tea-partier but they represent a very small portion of the movement and they also don't represent the views of the majority of blacks. They are a small fringe minority who in my opinion seem to be suffering an self-identity crisis.

3. The fact that at some of these tea party conventions are beginning to resemble Ku Klux Klan rallies with the imagery and racists remarks. which isn't really surprising as because many of the White Supremacists groups have joined the Tea-party.


Its a bit like Lincoln, Lincoln didnt give civil rights to blacks but he got the ball rolling when he freed the slaves.

I hope future presidents will continue reforming healthcare so that in 10-20 years or so we will have what we really need a true universal healthcare system.

Perhaps it was because our sources of info actually dug into his paper thin record & found them to be far left & anti capitalist "I sought out Marxist professors, ect". How many Whites voted for him because it would be cool, in thier opinion, to have a black Prez with out knowing or caring about his beliefs. No doubt some voted against him because he's black, but how many blacks voted for him because he's black? Here in Fla. the TV news every day interviewed blacks who were 50 & up & had never voted before (when the candidates were white) but had gone & regestered to vote for the black guy. One retired Air Force Sgt here admitted after the election that the disagreed with everything Obama stood for but had to vote for his fellow black guy. A lot of support Obama has/had is just as brainless as those who oppose him because he's black.

 

[mmarsh]

Perhaps it was because our sources of info actually dug into his paper thin record & found them to be far left & anti capitalist "I sought out Marxist professors, ect". How many Whites voted for him because it would be cool, in thier opinion, to have a black Prez with out knowing or caring about his beliefs. No doubt some voted against him because he's black, but how many blacks voted for him because he's black? Here in Fla. the TV news every day interviewed blacks who were 50 & up & had never voted before (when the candidates were white) but had gone & regestered to vote for the black guy. One retired Air Force Sgt here admitted after the election that the disagreed with everything Obama stood for but had to vote for his fellow black guy. A lot of support Obama has/had is just as brainless as those who oppose him because he's black.

"Your" sources of INFO meaning what exactly? You mean like the Birthers and their sources of INFO? So far "your" sources of INFO read more like conspiracy theories because there isnt any real any info in them.

Whites didnt vote for him because he was black, we voted for him because we didnt want another George Bush in office. Understand this: We do not like extremists Right or Leftwing. Obama isnt far-left, in fact hes not even liberal. He is center-left like I am. We dont care what color he is, Obama could have been white, black or turquoise Green and I still would have voted for him because the alternative was a completely out of touch 73 year old in bad health, and a far-right radical extremist with the IQ of a Twinkie whose political platform was exactly identical to Bush.

Afro-Americans have long been disenfranchised in America, espicially by the GOP. The fact that they would want one of there own in the White House only stands to reason. You might not understand this but black people have gotten the dirty end of the stick for a very long time, so the fact they want one of their own is perfectly understandable.

 

[Chukpike]

"Your" sources of INFO meaning what exactly? You mean like the Birthers and their sources of INFO? So far "your" sources of INFO read more like conspiracy theories because there isnt any real any info in them.

Whites didnt vote for him because he was black, we voted for him because we didnt want another George Bush in office. Understand this: We do not like extremists Right or Leftwing. Obama isnt far-left, in fact hes not even liberal. He is center-left like I am. We dont care what color he is, Obama could have been white, black or turquoise Green and I still would have voted for him because the alternative was a completely out of touch 73 year old in bad health, and a far-right radical extremist with the IQ of a Twinkie whose political platform was exactly identical to Bush.

Afro-Americans have long been disenfranchised in America, espicially by the GOP. The fact that they would want one of there own in the White House only stands to reason. You might not understand this but black people have gotten the dirty end of the stick for a very long time, so the fact they want one of their own is perfectly understandable.

Yada, Yada, Yada, you want to play the race card because you have no points to support the Health Care Bill as passed.


"We dont care what color he is" quote mmarsh

Apparently you do are you would not have brought it up.

"Afro-Americans have long been disenfranchised in America, espicially by the GOP." quote mmarsh

Afro-Americans have been disenfranchised, but not by the GOP. The party most responsible for holding back equal rights were the Democrats, primarily southern Democrats.

 

[George]

MLK Jr was a Reg. Republican, & if Reps had supported the Voting Rights Act @ the same level as Dems, it wouldn't have passed. Obama as a center-left shows how out of touch you are. Don't guage him by what he says, but the actions & appointments he makes.

 

[wolfen]

No I'm saying I oppose the health care reform because for one I don;t feel like I should have to pay for somebody else's health care, I can't afford my taxes to go up any more, the City I work for might cancel out group health insurance, which makes me a criminal if I no longer have insurance, and I'm FORCED BY LEW to go out and buy it. health care reform will cost Trillions, and please explain to me how saving a billion can offset the trillions? This bill now that its been passed by our socialist party in DC has effectively proven to me that congress does what congress wants, to hell with whats best for the nation. And their isn't that must recoverable funds to offset squat in this bill. We weer lied to from the very start, America doesn't want this bill Congress does, the United States Govt has abandoned its people as far as I'm concerned.
This bill has more problems than the "fix it" bill they had to pass the day after they passed the bill, which lights up another red light in my head, why in eth hell did they pass a bil they knew dam good and well wasn't right in teh first place?

 

[Rob Henderson]

No need for comments like that!


Parties change. Obviously the Democrats of today are not the Democrats of 50 years ago.

 

[-- Dusty]

message deleted as issue is resolved

 

[mmarsh]

No I'm saying I oppose the health care reform because for one I don;t feel like I should have to pay for somebody else's health care, I can't afford my taxes to go up any more, the City I work for might cancel out group health insurance, which makes me a criminal if I no longer have insurance, and I'm FORCED BY LEW to go out and buy it. health care reform will cost Trillions, and please explain to me how saving a billion can offset the trillions? This bill now that its been passed by our socialist party in DC has effectively proven to me that congress does what congress wants, to hell with whats best for the nation. And their isn't that must recoverable funds to offset squat in this bill. We weer lied to from the very start, America doesn't want this bill Congress does, the United States Govt has abandoned its people as far as I'm concerned.
This bill has more problems than the "fix it" bill they had to pass the day after they passed the bill, which lights up another red light in my head, why in eth hell did they pass a bil they knew dam good and well wasn't right in teh first place?

But you already are paying for someone else. Example: Medicare, Medicade, the VA, SCHIPS, FEHBP, there are tons of federal programs that provide healthcare to specific groups. The only ones NOT getting Government healthcare are ordinary private citizens.

Furthermore if you are a Public Employee you might (probably) have a local state health plan -which means someone else is paying for yours. And your a Vet correct? Guess what? I am paying for you through Veterans Affairs. Do you hear me complaining about it? Answer: NO

That's the utter hypocrisy I hear from the right. They don't want to pay for anyone else plan but they don't want anyone to touch their government plan either. Remember the women who screamed at Biden "We don't want your Socialism (referring to HCR), -dont you touch my medicare". I wanted to reach through the screen and give her reality check B**** slap. (Medicare being the biggest most expensive government social program out there). To this day I wonder if that women was selfish, stupid, or both.

And why stop at healthcare? I don't want to pay for useless wars in Iraq, subsides for agro-businesses, bank bailouts, useless weapon projects, bridges to nowhere in Alaska population: 50. I could list a thousand things far more useless than healthcare. Think I was given the choice? At least this actual helps people who need it. We in America, need to stop being so selfish. Everything we are now is defined by greed and excess.

If you read the Bill, there was nothing about a tax increase EXCEPT for those holding a "Cadillac Health Plan", and if your a public employee you probably don't have, unless you happen to own the city you work in. So no worries about your taxes going up.

What we need is a single payer system. This is how it works: The government creates a fund. Taxes which everyone pays are aloted into the fund. When you need to pay medical bills money is withdrawn from that fund. Some things are not covered (but that's what HMOs are for). Things like elective surgury, certain types of medication, etc, but the fund covers all the important stuff.

Advantages to the system: Its fair (everyone is covered), there is no HMO to deal with (they are optional), it saves money, It provides competition to the HMOs and it actually works! All first world countries have such a system or a variety of it. We are the only country stuck with the crap system that we have now.

You ask why did we have something we know was crap? You can thank your friends on the rightwing for that. They are the ones who killed the public option, that was our first step in breaking away from the for-profit system we have now. The GOP and their HMO lobbyists killed it.

 

[-- Dusty]

Am I to trust this new health care system? I remember when I was paying for medical insurance, I had it for about 3-4 months when I ended up in the ER with a good part of my hand shredded by rusty barbed wire fencing. That whole thing was a mess. My hand and trying to get stitched up & vaccinated.
First ER turned me away, said it looks fine (without removing the bandages).
Second ER took me, shot me full of tetenus vaccine, stitched it back together, and a week later I found out that my full coverage medical....wouldn't cover the ER bill.
Lessons like that taught me that I'm better off fixing myself instead of going to a doctor or ER.

As they used to say in the Soviet Union- people go to hospitals only to die.

 

[mmarsh]

Am I to trust this new health care system? I remember when I was paying for medical insurance, I had it for about 3-4 months when I ended up in the ER with a good part of my hand shredded by rusty barbed wire fencing. That whole thing was a mess. My hand and trying to get stitched up & vaccinated.
First ER turned me away, said it looks fine (without removing the bandages).
Second ER took me, shot me full of tetenus vaccine, stitched it back together, and a week later I found out that my full coverage medical....wouldn't cover the ER bill.
Lessons like that taught me that I'm better off fixing myself instead of going to a doctor or ER.

As they used to say in the Soviet Union- people go to hospitals only to die.

Your experience is a classic example for why for-profit system don't work. Hospitals that turn patients away because treating them might cost too much (or not enough if its private) and greedy HMO's that will find ANY excuse not to do the job they are supposed to being doing in order to avoid paying up.

Do you know that is actually a field of law specifically for healthcare, there are specialist lawyers whose sole job is to sue healthcare providers on behalf of patients. That's one reason why the HMO/GOP want tort reform. Because if they can limit judgements it becomes cheaper for the HMO's to settle out of court than it does to actually provide the treatment. For example: Settling with the family of the deceased for $75,000 is cheaper than paying the $300000 surgery would have cost to save the patients life. This sh*t has been going on for 40 years, its was time to do something. People have died simply because it cost to much, not because it wasnt possible. Any system that allows HMOs to make final medical decisions is a farce.

Its abit like the situation TOYOTA is in now. According to the emails they knew that there was a problem with involuntary acceleration with their cars but rather than issue a recall and fix the problem they figured it would be cheaper to pay off the lawsuits for those who were killed/injured. What they didn't know was that one of their lawyers grew a conscience (and also didn't want to get disbarred for presenting false evidence) and handed over evidence that proved TOYOTA knew about the problem and lied about it to the lawyers of the plaintiff.

Would the HRC would have prevented your story from happening? Honestly no..not yet. But it stopped some other dirty tricks like dropping people's plan with pre-existing conditions. This was the first battle in the HCR war not the last. It may take a decade or two to win the war because unfortunatly the proponents of the status quo will do anything they can to thwart HCR, as we have recently seen.