House Democrats Pass Healthcare Reform

[Rob Henderson]

Rob, I wish kids like you would do your homework for once. There are so many things wrong with this bill, like how at first there is not problem with pre-existing health issues. After four years, anyone with anything pre-existing will not have any medical coverage. Hitler did that kind of ****- kill off the ill, infirm and elderly and save it for the younger generation. But then, after the younger get older, well, look at pre-WW2 Germany.

Are you seriously saying I don't do my homework? I'm one of the most in-the-know "kids" on this board. Hell, I'm one of the ONLY kids on this board. C'mon man, give credit where credit is due.


I'll be the first one to admit that this bill is not perfect, but it is a far cry from what we WERE operating under. Could you provide a source (not being a dick) for that statement? The whole "after four years, anyone with anything pre-existing will not have any medical coverage" thing.

Real life example of this bill working... Long time friend of mine, Erin, just got her tonsils out today. Why? Because she was able to sign back on to her mother's insurance policy. She's been to the ER twice for her tonsils already. Things were getting desperate. Now she'll be okay. I don't care if my taxes go up some. KT already showed us that Americans are paying the lowest taxes in the world by a long shot anyway. We could stand to pay a little more for some better social programs.

 

[Chukpike]

Real life example of this bill working... Long time friend of mine, Erin, just got her tonsils out today. Why? Because she was able to sign back on to her mother's insurance policy. She's been to the ER twice for her tonsils already. Things were getting desperate. Now she'll be okay.

"Real life example of this bill working..."
Those Democrats are good, bill has not been signed but look at the miracles it has accomplished.:lol:

 

[mmarsh]

KnightsTemplar

Going to echo Rattler...Your numbers are bogus.

I'd love to know where you get the French 50% tax figure from. I have been living in France for 12 years and looking at my tax statement 2009 I paid only about 23%. Thats when I was single and made less that a six figure salary. The only tax bracket I know that is that high (and its still not 50%) would be on the top tier (millionaires) and that is in the low 40s.

 

[-- Dusty]

"Real life example of this bill working..."
Those Democrats are good, bill has not been signed but look at the miracles it has accomplished.:lol:

Heh! Yeah, some "in the know"!

It's a snowball effect and I wish Rob would think about that. The health care bill will fail, just like the Social Security bill is now. It took many decades for Social Security to show it's faults, and the government kept sticking their fingers in the pot, disregarding those that contributed. And the health care bill will do the same. Why don't we just stick everyone in cages or execute them instead? Steal everything they have, and waste the money?

 

[mmarsh]

Heh! Yeah, some "in the know"!

It's a snowball effect and I wish Rob would think about that. The health care bill will fail, just like the Social Security bill is now. It took many decades for Social Security to show it's faults, and the government kept sticking their fingers in the pot, disregarding those that contributed. And the health care bill will do the same. Why don't we just stick everyone in cages or execute them instead? Steal everything they have, and waste the money?

First of all Social Security didnt fail, its simply gotten slightly obsolete because when it was created it was calculated on the life expectancy and population size of people living in the 1930s and later 1960s when Nixon revised it. Most of the problems can be fixed with adjustments like increasing the retirement age. Most experts will tell you that SS has issues but that its not the biggest worry, medicare is far more problematic.

Secondly if you look at the popularity of Social Security, I think that too is testimount of how successful its been. When Bush tried to privatize SS in 2005 (by letting Wall Street manage it...go figure) he was tarred, feathered, and rode out of DC on a rail. And most of the critics did NOT come from liberals, but from older people living in the Red States.

And Thank God they did complain, because if Bush had gotten his way these people would now be on the street due the economic meltdown caused by the very people Bush wanted to manage social security. This is a case in point example of why social programs like social security, and healthcare cannot be trusted in the hands of private organizations.

You say that the Bill is bad? I don't think its great either, but the status quo is even worse, so its better than nothing. There are some gems in the Bill like banning HMO from dropping polcies of people with preexsisting conditions, the closing of the doughnut hole, and the cutting of prosciption drug prices are good programs. Personally though, I would have pushed for a single payer program as that it the only system known to actually work.

The real problem with the bill was that the rightwing was so wound up in embarrassing Obama just for political gain that they refused to participate in making a better bill, which is a shame because I do think their are Republicans who were willing to make a deal but were sidelined by the crazies and the fact that the Health Insurence Industry Lobby basically controls the party. The GOP ran as the party of NO and still lost, thats going to comeback to haunt them in november as they painted themselves as the partisan obstructionist party with no ideas who lobbied for the status quo. Boy thats a winning campaign slogan, espicially by the times the elections come around the popular aspects of the bill will have full public support.

Read the article from David Frum (a major CONSERVATIVE Author) he calles this the GOP's Waterloo, a states why the GOP played this very badly from the start.

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

BTW, be aware that the fact that the bill passed makes it the beginning of the healthcare debate not the end. There is still alot of work to do although it will probably be done by a different president.

 

[George]

Rush & Costa Rica Yup, this isn't the end, even if it stands up in Court, it's only the 1st step to total Govt control. As far as greedy Insurance companies, look @ the Thread on Profits, #36 on the list of profitable industries with many off radar ones above it.

 

[KnightTemplar]

KnightsTemplar

Going to echo Rattler...Your numbers are bogus.

I'd love to know where you get the French 50% tax figure from. I have been living in France for 12 years and looking at my tax statement 2009 I paid only about 23%. Thats when I was single and made less that a six figure salary. The only tax bracket I know that is that high (and its still not 50%) would be on the top tier (millionaires) and that is in the low 40s.

That would be the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development which "collects data on 30 member countries and annually calculates what it calls the tax "wedge" for each -- the combined effects of personal income tax, employee and employer social security contributions, payroll taxes and cash benefits."

The Tax burdens around the world was reposted on MSN, the article had nothing to do with the health care bill, only income tax season, making it harder (but sadly not impossible) for liberals to claim it is a right-wing whack-job conspiracy where they are making numbers up. As to why I chose to post the "single numbers" that is because those numbers are the ones important to me seeing as I don't have a wife and 2 kids which is the other set of numbers (which by the way are still considerably higher than the U.S. for those countries).

 

[mmarsh]

Rush & Costa Rica Yup, this isn't the end, even if it stands up in Court, it's only the 1st step to total Govt control. As far as greedy Insurance companies, look @ the Thread on Profits, #36 on the list of profitable industries with many off radar ones above it.

A total government takeover of the healthcare system?

Ever have a major health issue? Wait until you get older. Look and see what the current system as in store for you, which will be ended today when Obama signs the bill into law:

Example 1.

1. You're on Medicare, You have presciption medical costs of $2701 which unfortunatly means that unless you spend over $6400 on prescription medicine everything in between $2700 and $6400 is at your expense. Think the HMOs are going to help you..think again. Only *some* plans cover drugs and those that do only offer very tight limitations, its not 100% coverage unless you have got a cadillac plan.

You've got $6000 just for all your pills when you retire George? I hope so. Because I sure as hell don't.

Example 2.

2. Your a long term client at my HMO, unfortunatly you are diagnosed with cancer and your policy plan is due to expire next month. You get a letter from me, saying that due to you preexisting condition (the cancer) our lawyers and bean counters say its perfect legal (and profitable) for us to drop you as a patient at then end of your contract even if you had a preexsisting plan with my company. Better yet, suppose me the bastard HMO CEO can prove that you cancer was actually there BEFORE you were my client, and before you were even diagnosed. Ignorence is not an excuse George, if I as CEO can prove your condition happened before you signed your plan with me that IS grounds for me to terminate your contract immediatly.

Until today, all this was perfectly legal.

So let me think as to your statment:

Total Government control of Health insurence? Yessir, Amen, Hallelujah! I say F*** the HMOs. That we we can have a Insurence system that actually provides Healthcare Insurence (like in Costa Rica where Limbaugh is supposed to be moving off to) rather than one whose sole business is the company's bottom line.

Knighttemplar

Ah, well that was abit misleading because you said taxes and not total contributions or the "wedge" as your article stated. I will also point out that except for actual income, living and property taxes the other deductions are visable unless you actually read the deductions on your paystub line by line.

But OK, the difference is that for that 50% your French single male has medical insurence, unemployment insurence, retirement plan and alot of other "extras" which are calculated as part of their total contributions. In the US these extras are seperate and are not counted as part of their tax contributions. If you wanted to do a fair compairson you would have to compare and calculate all expenses of your American subject and compare it to that of your French one. My father and I ran the numbers a few years ago and if you count all the "extras" in the US that a French person would take for granted the actual number in total comes to about the same.

Ill grant you Americans pay less "income" taxes, but the advantage the Europeans get is that they actually get something for their money. I prefer the Europeans on this its just much less of a hassle...

Example: Last year my 90 year old French grandmother had a minor stroke (she fully recovered, although she had a second one 6 months ago). 7 Days in the Hospital-24 hour care, physical therpy, two ambulence rides, medication, she got the works. Cost out of her Pocket = 0.00 Euros. She paid absolutely nothing, everything was covered 100%. You show me an US HMO that offers the same type of coverage (for an average citizen not a cadallac policy) and Ill eat my shoe.

Thats the difference: private healthcare is for-profit and social healthcare is for-service. If the US ever goes to a single payer system no one will ever want to go back to the old system and the HMOs know this all too well.

 

[rattler]

That would be the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development which "collects data on 30 member countries and annually calculates what it calls the tax "wedge" for each -- the combined effects of personal income tax, employee and employer social security contributions, payroll taxes and cash benefits."

The Tax burdens around the world was reposted on MSN, the article had nothing to do with the health care bill, only income tax season, making it harder (but sadly not impossible) for liberals to claim it is a right-wing whack-job conspiracy where they are making numbers up. As to why I chose to post the "single numbers" that is because those numbers are the ones important to me seeing as I don't have a wife and 2 kids which is the other set of numbers (which by the way are still considerably higher than the U.S. for those countries).

Ah, so you are specifically *not* talking taxes here but total contributions incl what we call social security (and is indeed 15%)? and then addning employer and employee? This makes yur numbers the brain washer then, because to put the US in that list and compare would qualify it as pure demagogy, as there it is *only* the income tax listed.

The income taxes here are not much higher than in the US (I concede they are higher for high income earners), but the benefits we have from state programs is way compensating that.

Again, let me give you my example: 3 Heart incidents in the last 5 years (suspected infarcts that then turned out to be a irritation of one of the central nerves and completely heart unrelated - but requiring life long medication - , but still ambulance, ICU and all the show); two broken limbs in the last 10; 5-6 times work induced metal splinters in one of my eyes in the last 10 yrs; accident with the flex that required a sow up on one of my hands; last August suspected osephagus cancer, with lot of non-intrusive diagnostics (TAC, etc) and laborotry investigations. My wife: Broken elbow 8 yrs ago from car accident; broken shoulder from work accident, 3 yrs ago, both required extensive rehab; maxillofacial with replacement of upper and lower front teeth (same car accident); spare me the details of my kids accidents and stuff over the years.

Total cost for us (not privately insured except for teeth): Zero. Zilch. Naught.

I do not mind paying 12-15% of my income for this type of social security (which also includes 2 years pay when losing the job and my pension after 65 yrs old). In Spain it is obligatory, in Germany it was not; guess where I chose not to pay it and now have to live with a low pension if I do not complete my last 11 yrs here in Spain? I am glad somebody made me pay this by deduction and I can profit from not having sleepless nights about how to cover cost if I have an accident or become seriously ill (as this by itself is just about enough problem).

Rattler

 

[Rob Henderson]

Heh! Yeah, some "in the know"!

It's a snowball effect and I wish Rob would think about that. The health care bill will fail, just like the Social Security bill is now. It took many decades for Social Security to show it's faults, and the government kept sticking their fingers in the pot, disregarding those that contributed. And the health care bill will do the same. Why don't we just stick everyone in cages or execute them instead? Steal everything they have, and waste the money?

Social Security hasn't failed. It has simply become out dated. With the proper attention being paid to it by someone who actually cares about the American people and not just big corporations and saving his father's face, it can become what it really has the potential to be: A life saving tool for the elderly.

 

[The Other Guy]

Average tax rates per country (Single, no kids)
Austria - 47.4%
Belgium - 55.4%
Denmark - 41.4%
Finland - 44.6%
France - 50.1%
Germany - 51.8%
Hungry - 50.5%
Sweden - 47.9%
U.S. - 29.1%

And yet it's the AMERICANS that whine and cry about having high taxes the most! They've had "tax=bad" stuffed down their throats since the Reagan Administration and they're terrified of taxes. How else is the deficit going to disappear? You know that neither party is actually going to spend less, let's be real about that.

 

[Chukpike]

First of all Social Security didnt fail, its simply gotten slightly obsolete because when it was created it was calculated on the life expectancy and population size of people living in the 1930s and later 1960s when Nixon revised it. Most of the problems can be fixed with adjustments like increasing the retirement age.

This is way to funny. My Mother is 86, that is old enough to be contributing since SS began. Now that she is old enough to collect the system is obsolete? (She paid into SS until her 70s when she quit working for good).

Adjustments like increasing the retirement age? Lets raise the age to two years above the average lifespan to cut the number of people that actually reach an age to draw Social Security.
:bang:
Unintended consequences of raising the retirement age. People don't stop working and so keep someone else from being hired. (It causes higher unemployment).

I have been paying into social security since I was fourteen. Forty-eight years, I was supposed to collect full benefits at 65 when I started paying, now I think it is 67.5 for me. Did the government breach a trust when they increased the age? :x

BTW, be aware that the fact that the bill passed makes it the beginning of the health care debate not the end. There is still alto of work to do although it will probably be done by a different president.

Agree with you here, as the Social Security debate has been going on since the 1930s.:lol:

"different president"? Counting him out after a little over one year? Says a lot about how good a job you think he is doing.

Social Security hasn't failed. It has simply become out dated. With the proper attention being paid to it by someone who actually cares about the American people and not just big corporations and saving his father's face, it can become what it really has the potential to be: A life saving tool for the elderly.

They say their is a sucker born every minute.
(I guess you are insinuating that if Bush had not meddled with SS it would be working). His proposed changes failed, so why does SS not live up to its original intent?

"Out dated"? Heh Heh Heh! Here is a 19 year old who someday may pay his own way. Saying a retirement system has become "out dated". It is a retirement system. If it did what the government "planned" on it doing how could it become outdated?

What is going to be there for you in 61 years (70 increased government retirement age). There will be some know it all 19 year old saying your retirement system is "out dated".:wink:

When you get older and need more health care is this new Health Care system going to be obsolete?

You are ready to change or "update" a program that people have paid their money into all there working lives. Is the government going to reimburse them for what they paid in?

 

[KnightTemplar]

And now the ink from President Obama's signature was barely dry when attorneys general from 14 states filed papers in federal court challenging the constitutionality of the newly-signed health care bill. The lawsuit is about the question of forcing states, against the sovereignty that's guaranteed in the constitution to our states, to do things that are practically impossible to do.
Attorneys general from South Carolina, Nebraska, Texas, Utah, Louisiana, Alabama, Michigan, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Washington, Idaho, and South Dakota joined Florida in their suit. Virginia filed a separate suit in federal court in Richmond because it has a state statute on the books worded specifically to block such a mandate.



Less than 24 hours in and already 28% of the states in the U.S. are suing the federal government and I hear others are considering joining in.

 

[Rob Henderson]

They say their is a sucker born every minute.
(I guess you are insinuating that if Bush had not meddled with SS it would be working). His proposed changes failed, so why does SS not live up to its original intent?

At least it'll be a sucker who can use proper wording.

I'm insinuating that we get out of it what we put in to it. We've seen the tax rates of America when compared to the rest of the world. There (see, it's the CORRECT form of the word) is a reason those systems work so well.

"Out dated"? Heh Heh Heh! Here is a 19 year old who someday may pay his own way. Saying a retirement system has become "out dated". It is a retirement system. If it did what the government "planned" on it doing how could it become outdated?

Because it was geared towards the 1930s economy and the people living in the 1930s.

What is going to be there for you in 61 years (70 increased government retirement age). There will be some know it all 19 year old saying your retirement system is "out dated".:wink:

Unless of course the American people wise up.

When you get older and need more health care is this new Health Care system going to be obsolete?

I cannot predict the future. If it is, I will be the first one calling for change. If my vote could change things to be better for generations to come, I'd sacrifice a little. That's where you and I are fundamentally different.

You are ready to change or "update" a program that people have paid their money into all there working lives. Is the government going to reimburse them for what they paid in?

Oh, I see, you just mixed the two forms up. You meant to put the "their" down here and the "there" up top. Isn't that right? Pahaha. I really don't see how you have ANY grounds in calling me a "know it all."

The government won't have to reimburse them because changing it would make it BETTER. That's how that works.


BY THE WAY, I've been putting into SS for about 5 years now. Sure, it's not as much as you, but I've put in a fair share of my lifetime (taxable) earnings. And ya know what? I wouldn't mind paying MORE. If it meant better health care, cheaper health care, better quality of life for the elderly, LONGER high-quality life for the elderly, etc. I'd pay more in a heartbeat.

 

[KnightTemplar]

I dare say the next major push will be for Immigration "reform" including amnesty for illegals thus bumping the total cost of the just passed health care bill well over the $1 trillion mark.

Obama benefited from a huge turnout of reliably Democratic Hispanic voters as he won the presidency in 2008, drawn by his promise to deliver immigration reform allowing millions of illegal immigrants a path to citizenship.
But the effort has been sidelined during Obama's long push for healthcare reform, and with the November elections looming, time is running out for Obama to deliver, or risk Hispanic voters staying home.
Obama won support for his healthcare plan only late last week from the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, which had been unhappy with language in the bill barring illegal immigrants from benefiting from its provisions.
Members of the caucus said they were partly swayed by Obama's assurances that he would push for an immigration plan. He backs offering citizenship to illegal immigrants in good standing, while cracking down on employers who hire undocumented workers and tightening the border with Mexico.

Source

 

[George]

Social Security hasn't failed. It has simply become out dated. With the proper attention being paid to it by someone who actually cares about the American people and not just big corporations and saving his father's face, it can become what it really has the potential to be: A life saving tool for the elderly.

SS is obsolete because the people who sat up this ponze scheme expected a very large number of workers subsidizing a small numbers of retirees. Changing demographics has wrecked that, even with out LBJ raiding the cash to fund his Great Welfare Society.. Tom Daischle was Obama's 1st choice for Health & Human Services Sec. His book says he advocates cutting of R&D on expensive drugs that will extend the lives of the elderly, amoungst other things.

 

[Chukpike]

There has been a lot of talk about how US Tax rates are lower than other countries throughout the world. Is this supposed to be a bad thing?:???:

Is the world full of stupid people that think they should give away there money. If so, please PM me so I can give you an address to send the rest of your cash too.:lol:

"I've been putting into SS for about 5 years now. Sure, it's not as much as you, but I've put in a fair share of my lifetime (taxable) earnings." quote Rob Henderson

Your joking right? You have contributed to SS for 5 years from your paper route. And you think that "I've put in a fair share of my lifetime (taxable) earnings"?

Rob you sure have a sense of humor.

 

[-- Dusty]

Best way one can tell that Robbie has no ground to fight on is when he starts complaining about spelling and grammar..... ROFL!

 

[Rob Henderson]

There has been a lot of talk about how US Tax rates are lower than other countries throughout the world. Is this supposed to be a bad thing?:???:

Is the world full of stupid people that think they should give away there money. If so, please PM me so I can give you an address to send the rest of your cash too.:lol:

The rest of the world also has better social programs provided by their government.

"I've been putting into SS for about 5 years now. Sure, it's not as much as you, but I've put in a fair share of my lifetime (taxable) earnings." quote Rob Henderson

Your joking right? You have contributed to SS for 5 years from your paper route. And you think that "I've put in a fair share of my lifetime (taxable) earnings"?

Rob you sure have a sense of humor.

Chuk, adjusting for life spent on this earth, I've put in plenty. It's called fractions. You have a higher bottom number, so your top number will be higher too. For example: let's say you've given $120,000 in your 60 years of life. That's 120,000/60. Roughly 2,000 a year. (I know you didn't pay when you were 1 year old, just go with it.)

So if we took your 2,000 a year and added it to only 19 years of life, we get only 38,000. See how that works? Less time to earn it equals less money overall. I know it's difficult, but maybe math will be your strong suit, since it's obviously not English.


Hmmm, about one eighth of my post was about grammar. Whereas your ENTIRE post was about grammar. Who's the one without an argument?

 

[MontyB]

Well to be honest I think you have all spent your arguments and now its just a battle to get the last word in.