Genghis Khan
Active member
What are your thoughts on the Hitler Youth from some of the things I have read they are ruthless killers that show no mercy to their enemies. Other info says they are just little kids with guns.
Hitler Youth
Jäger
Active member
Yes thats right, they were a youth association wich was founded to educate and train the youth physical for being better soldiers in future. They also were also educated in the nazi ideology. Later in war more and more kids of the hitler youth were taken for the military, e.g. in the battle of berlin the HJ formed a major part of the last defense line together with the 'Volkssturm'.
The hitler youth was not a organization of ruthless killers, but there was also a unit of the WaffenSS, the so called 12th SS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend', wich is just named after the hitler youth. They took place in the Normandy Campaign and in the battle of bulge. I don't know if they were ruthless killers, but I think i heard, that in there were many convinced nazis, many were taken from the 1st SS Panzerdivision 'Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hilter'.
The hitler youth was not a organization of ruthless killers, but there was also a unit of the WaffenSS, the so called 12th SS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend', wich is just named after the hitler youth. They took place in the Normandy Campaign and in the battle of bulge. I don't know if they were ruthless killers, but I think i heard, that in there were many convinced nazis, many were taken from the 1st SS Panzerdivision 'Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hilter'.
Doppleganger
Active member
They were neither ruthless killers nor kids with guns. Most of them were between the ages of 17 and 18 and so they were of adult or near adult age for military service.
Although they were indoctrinated into the Nazi ideology they were just, in reality, young soldiers fighting for the survival of their country.
I don't know what you mean exactly by 'convinced nazis' Jäger but the Leibstandarte SS 'Adolf Hitler' was a combat unit and not a general SS unit. It committed no more atrocities or was no more involved in Nazi Party activities than the Heer units it fought alongside.
Although they were indoctrinated into the Nazi ideology they were just, in reality, young soldiers fighting for the survival of their country.
I don't know what you mean exactly by 'convinced nazis' Jäger but the Leibstandarte SS 'Adolf Hitler' was a combat unit and not a general SS unit. It committed no more atrocities or was no more involved in Nazi Party activities than the Heer units it fought alongside.
Jäger
Active member
The members of the HJ were 14-18 years old and the HJ was originally just made as a paramilitaric group. In that age they were more accessible to the nazi ideology (i include extreme nationalism) and made them, especially at the end of the war, totaly convinced young soldiers, wich fought till death for a lost matter.
Leibstandarte SS 'Adolf Hitler' was not a normal unit of the waffen SS. They had their origin as the Adolf Hitlers personal Bodyguards, because he did not trust the Reichswehr. The 'Leibstandarte SS' had to swear on Adolf Hitler him self an was formed of mostly 'perfect arian' Soldiers wich were totally devoted to Adolf Hitler and convinced of the nazi ideology.
Leibstandarte SS 'Adolf Hitler' was not a normal unit of the waffen SS. They had their origin as the Adolf Hitlers personal Bodyguards, because he did not trust the Reichswehr. The 'Leibstandarte SS' had to swear on Adolf Hitler him self an was formed of mostly 'perfect arian' Soldiers wich were totally devoted to Adolf Hitler and convinced of the nazi ideology.
Doppleganger
Active member
Jäger said:
Yes, initially that was true but when they were finally formed as a full division they were basically an elite unit of the Wehrmacht, for all extents and purposes. Moreover, as the war went on and Germany's manpower began to run out, the Waffen SS divisions 'relaxed' their standards and began to compete with the Heer for the best of the new recruits. In other words it was no longer an 'all-volunteer' force with impossibly high standards.
All soldiers had to swear a personal oath of loyalty to Adolf Hitler not just those of the Waffen SS. And I think even the Leibstandarte (LSSAH) began to have doubts about Adolf Hitler, especially towards the end of the war. Sepp Dietrich, the long-time divisional commander of the LSSAH, began to express doubts about Hitler's judgement as early as December 1941.
Jäger
Active member
I think in the last years of the war nearly nobody who was on the front believed in the sh** Hitler said an did. and if Sepp Dietrich had doubts he was not the only one, but all I wanted to say was, that at the time the 12th SS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend' was build ('43) they got their division officers, NCOs, and specialists from the 1st SS Panzer Division LSSAH. And this officers were in the average more connected to the nazi ideology, because they were chosen by this criterium.
LeEnfield
Active member
They fought with great courage and to the death, British and Canadian troops ran into them around Caen, and they fought to the death inflicting very heavy casualties on our troops. It must be understood that they had been brought up all their short lives to think of Hitler as some form of God and like the suicide bombers the greatest thing that they could do was to die in the service of their country. You only need to check just how few of them were taken prisoner to understand just how hard they fought. If remember rightly out of one German Battalion there were just two prisoners taken, the rest died at their posts.
The German youth was corrupted by Baldur von Schirach, head of the Hitler Youth movement.
In 1933 he took over the entire Hitler Youth, which was to grow into an organization which had no equal. Hitler called on von Schirach "to project National Socialism through German youth into eternity." At its peak the Hitler Youth's membership included almost all of the German youngsters. By 1938 it comprised 8 million members, and von Schirach was presented as a kind of demigod, with his pictures second only to Hitler's in displays throughout Germany.
In the space of a few years he had shaped German youth into young men willing to prosecute the most destructive war in history as well as to engage or acquiesce in the most brutal atrocities in modern European history. The boys he helped trained remained loyal to the end, in many cases joining in the hopeless often suicidal defense of their towns and villages even though the War was lost.
No other group of Germans were so totally under Nazi control than children once they reached 10 years of age. Von Schirach used a powerful mixture of pagan romanticism, militarism and naive patriotism to build up recruits for Hitler's war machine. Young Germans were to be drilled into acceptance of Nazi concepts of character, discipline, obedience and leadership as set out in von Schirach's book, Die Hilter-Jugend (1934). A whole generation was molded into a new race of "supermen". The success of the Hitler Youth in imbuing German youth with Nazi principles and idealogy was an important element in preparing Germany for war. Von Schirach taught German youth that their blood was better than that of any nation and devoted his lyricism to hollow worship of the Führer's genius.
Von Schirach signed an agreement with the military to funnel Hitler Youth boys into the armed forces. There was no secret about this, posters shown exalts in the fact that the HItler youth was the training ground for future officers. More ominous was the fact that particularly outstanding boys were funneled into the SS and boys offered the opportunity considered it a great honor. Von Schirach was not liked by many top Nazi's. SS Leader Himmler was the major exception, presumably because Von Schirach helped create such an effective recruiting system and provided boys ready to accept the terrible tasks assigned the SS.
Certain Waffin S.S. units like the Leibstandarte, were units that were tied ideologically to fascism, many from the Hitler youth movement. The SS weren't just fighting units, they embodied the spirit of Nazism.
They were fanatical fighters, but their fighting record was stained by crimes, such as the Wormhoudt atrocity at Pas-de-Calais, on 27/28 May 1940 in France, where men of the 2nd Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment and the Royal Artillery, were taken prisoner and murdered.
And after fighting loyally for six years, and often achieving the great results, Hitler eventually turned on the Leibstandarte. After withdrawing from the failed Operation Frühlingserwachen, Hitler demanded the unit return their sacred Adolf Hitler cuffbands.
The Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf [all now Panzergrenadier divisions] took part in the immense armour battles near Prokhorovka on the southern flank of the Kursk salient, and were fought to a standstill by General Rotmistrovs 5th tank army.
They were commanded for a time by Sepp Dietrich, who was convicted of the murder of civilians and P.O.Ws, and by SS Major Joachim Peiper, who was also convicted of war crimes, and met a grisly end in France after the war.
In 1933 he took over the entire Hitler Youth, which was to grow into an organization which had no equal. Hitler called on von Schirach "to project National Socialism through German youth into eternity." At its peak the Hitler Youth's membership included almost all of the German youngsters. By 1938 it comprised 8 million members, and von Schirach was presented as a kind of demigod, with his pictures second only to Hitler's in displays throughout Germany.
In the space of a few years he had shaped German youth into young men willing to prosecute the most destructive war in history as well as to engage or acquiesce in the most brutal atrocities in modern European history. The boys he helped trained remained loyal to the end, in many cases joining in the hopeless often suicidal defense of their towns and villages even though the War was lost.
No other group of Germans were so totally under Nazi control than children once they reached 10 years of age. Von Schirach used a powerful mixture of pagan romanticism, militarism and naive patriotism to build up recruits for Hitler's war machine. Young Germans were to be drilled into acceptance of Nazi concepts of character, discipline, obedience and leadership as set out in von Schirach's book, Die Hilter-Jugend (1934). A whole generation was molded into a new race of "supermen". The success of the Hitler Youth in imbuing German youth with Nazi principles and idealogy was an important element in preparing Germany for war. Von Schirach taught German youth that their blood was better than that of any nation and devoted his lyricism to hollow worship of the Führer's genius.
Von Schirach signed an agreement with the military to funnel Hitler Youth boys into the armed forces. There was no secret about this, posters shown exalts in the fact that the HItler youth was the training ground for future officers. More ominous was the fact that particularly outstanding boys were funneled into the SS and boys offered the opportunity considered it a great honor. Von Schirach was not liked by many top Nazi's. SS Leader Himmler was the major exception, presumably because Von Schirach helped create such an effective recruiting system and provided boys ready to accept the terrible tasks assigned the SS.
Certain Waffin S.S. units like the Leibstandarte, were units that were tied ideologically to fascism, many from the Hitler youth movement. The SS weren't just fighting units, they embodied the spirit of Nazism.
They were fanatical fighters, but their fighting record was stained by crimes, such as the Wormhoudt atrocity at Pas-de-Calais, on 27/28 May 1940 in France, where men of the 2nd Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment and the Royal Artillery, were taken prisoner and murdered.
And after fighting loyally for six years, and often achieving the great results, Hitler eventually turned on the Leibstandarte. After withdrawing from the failed Operation Frühlingserwachen, Hitler demanded the unit return their sacred Adolf Hitler cuffbands.
The Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf [all now Panzergrenadier divisions] took part in the immense armour battles near Prokhorovka on the southern flank of the Kursk salient, and were fought to a standstill by General Rotmistrovs 5th tank army.
They were commanded for a time by Sepp Dietrich, who was convicted of the murder of civilians and P.O.Ws, and by SS Major Joachim Peiper, who was also convicted of war crimes, and met a grisly end in France after the war.
Doppleganger
Active member
Hi Ashes.
Your previous post sounds like you're partly quoting wholesale from somewhere? If so you really should link your sources.
All the Waffen SS units were tied ideologically to Nazism I thought, not just certain ones. I include the 'foreign' SS formations under this.
All armies committed attrocities in WW2. The Germans no doubt started it but no army was free from the stain of war crimes.
What version of Prokhorovka are you referring to? The official 'Great Patriotic War' version or the accurate version. The Waffen SS units forming II SS Panzer Korps performed the best of all German tank units at Kursk, but only because their commander Paul Hausser came up with a very good tactical plan. 5th Guards Army and 5th Guards Tank Army did indeed halt the German advance but took heavy losses in doing so, much more so than II SS Panzer Korps did.
Hitler was never the same after July 20th, 1944 and he had been slipping away since Stalingrad. If this was due to the onset of his Parkinson's condition or just the way the war was going who can tell. Probably a bit of both.
The Hitler Youth were certainly well indoctrinated into Nazi ideology and this fanaticism certainly helped, as it did with all Waffen SS units, in aiding their fighting strength and ruthlessness.
Your previous post sounds like you're partly quoting wholesale from somewhere? If so you really should link your sources.
All the Waffen SS units were tied ideologically to Nazism I thought, not just certain ones. I include the 'foreign' SS formations under this.
All armies committed attrocities in WW2. The Germans no doubt started it but no army was free from the stain of war crimes.
What version of Prokhorovka are you referring to? The official 'Great Patriotic War' version or the accurate version. The Waffen SS units forming II SS Panzer Korps performed the best of all German tank units at Kursk, but only because their commander Paul Hausser came up with a very good tactical plan. 5th Guards Army and 5th Guards Tank Army did indeed halt the German advance but took heavy losses in doing so, much more so than II SS Panzer Korps did.
Hitler was never the same after July 20th, 1944 and he had been slipping away since Stalingrad. If this was due to the onset of his Parkinson's condition or just the way the war was going who can tell. Probably a bit of both.
The Hitler Youth were certainly well indoctrinated into Nazi ideology and this fanaticism certainly helped, as it did with all Waffen SS units, in aiding their fighting strength and ruthlessness.
Hi Doppleganger.
Here's a few links to the Hitler youth, one of them mentions that the kids were so indoctrinated they even ratted on their own parents......
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RMQ/is_19_10/ai_n11836167
http://histclo.hispeed.com/youth/youth/org/nat/hitler/hitler.htm
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-prelude.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~Propagander2/index-14.html
You said ____________________________________________________________________________________________
All armies committed attrocities in WW2. The Germans no doubt started it but no army was free from the stain of war crimes.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
You've said this many times now, and though it's true that all sides commit crimes in war, are you honestly comparing the two?
Surely you're aware of the full extent of the crimes committed by the German army and Waffin S.S. in Russia?
All iv'e seen you acknowidge is 'that each side shot prisoners'
The Whermacht murdered 2 million P.O.W,s and assisted the Einzengruppen in mudering millions of civilians.
The Russian P.O.Ws were crammed in cages, stripped of there winter clothing, unfed, dying of untreated wounds, succumbing to diseases, and the Germans, afraid to even go into the cages for fear of infection, often used flame throwers to incinerate them all, dead, dying and wounded.
The Waffin S.S, from the very start, began with attrocities against the British in France, before they even got to the Eastern front. Then, when not fighting the Red army, conducted a deliberate reign of terror against the so called untermench, among the worst of these was the Totenkopf or 'Deaths head' regiment, who routinely shot school children, doused hospital inmates with gasolene and burnt them alive, and of course helped the Einzengruppen in their mass murder of Jews and 'undesireables'
The real untermench were 'men' like this.
I could give you a list as long as your arm, of mass attrocities commited by the Waffin S.S. in France, Russia, Italy, virtually anywhere they went.
Nothing remotely aproached this in the West, and any Russian crimes, bad though they were, were retaliation for the greatest crimes in history.
To suggest that the Allies, paticually the British and Americans, commited atrocities of this kind, or this scale, is a little missleading, dont you think?
You said....
____________________________________________________________________________________________
What version of Prokhorovka are you referring to? The official 'Great Patriotic War' version or the accurate version. The Waffen SS units forming II SS Panzer Korps performed the best of all German tank units at Kursk, but only because their commander Paul Hausser came up with a very good tactical plan. 5th Guards Army and 5th Guards Tank Army did indeed halt the German advance but took heavy losses in doing so, much more so than II SS Panzer Korps did.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Gee Doppleganger, you've questioned my sources several times now.
Are you suggesting that i'm getting info from only the Russians side?
As iv'e mentioned several times before, my info comes from David Glantz, Allen Clarke, John Ericson, John Keegen, Trevor Roper, Antony Beever, Carlo DeEste among many others, on the other hand your sources seem to come largely from the German side [is this what you refer to as "the accurate version?] from the likes of Guderian, who Glantz says laid at Hitler's feet principal responsibility for all failures of the German Army, and Manstein, where Glantz says his opposing force ratios are in conflict with those shown by archival materials of Fremde Heeres 0st (Foreign Armies East), Gehlen's organizations, and of the OKH. Again Soviet superiorities are often overstated, plus the Wikepedia web site, which was a little dubious at best.
To be truthful, I don't see what point you're trying to make though, for no matter where I got this information from, German, Russian or whatever, it doesn't alter the facts, which we both agree on, that Rotmistrov stopped Hauser at Prokhorovka, which is all I said.
You said....
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Hitler was never the same after July 20th, 1944 and he had been slipping away since Stalingrad. If this was due to the onset of his Parkinson's condition or just the way the war was going who can tell. Probably a bit of both.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
By July 20th, 1944 Germany was kaput.
Here's a few links to the Hitler youth, one of them mentions that the kids were so indoctrinated they even ratted on their own parents......
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RMQ/is_19_10/ai_n11836167
http://histclo.hispeed.com/youth/youth/org/nat/hitler/hitler.htm
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-prelude.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~Propagander2/index-14.html
You said ____________________________________________________________________________________________
All armies committed attrocities in WW2. The Germans no doubt started it but no army was free from the stain of war crimes.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
You've said this many times now, and though it's true that all sides commit crimes in war, are you honestly comparing the two?
Surely you're aware of the full extent of the crimes committed by the German army and Waffin S.S. in Russia?
All iv'e seen you acknowidge is 'that each side shot prisoners'
The Whermacht murdered 2 million P.O.W,s and assisted the Einzengruppen in mudering millions of civilians.
The Russian P.O.Ws were crammed in cages, stripped of there winter clothing, unfed, dying of untreated wounds, succumbing to diseases, and the Germans, afraid to even go into the cages for fear of infection, often used flame throwers to incinerate them all, dead, dying and wounded.
The Waffin S.S, from the very start, began with attrocities against the British in France, before they even got to the Eastern front. Then, when not fighting the Red army, conducted a deliberate reign of terror against the so called untermench, among the worst of these was the Totenkopf or 'Deaths head' regiment, who routinely shot school children, doused hospital inmates with gasolene and burnt them alive, and of course helped the Einzengruppen in their mass murder of Jews and 'undesireables'
The real untermench were 'men' like this.
I could give you a list as long as your arm, of mass attrocities commited by the Waffin S.S. in France, Russia, Italy, virtually anywhere they went.
Nothing remotely aproached this in the West, and any Russian crimes, bad though they were, were retaliation for the greatest crimes in history.
To suggest that the Allies, paticually the British and Americans, commited atrocities of this kind, or this scale, is a little missleading, dont you think?
You said....
____________________________________________________________________________________________
What version of Prokhorovka are you referring to? The official 'Great Patriotic War' version or the accurate version. The Waffen SS units forming II SS Panzer Korps performed the best of all German tank units at Kursk, but only because their commander Paul Hausser came up with a very good tactical plan. 5th Guards Army and 5th Guards Tank Army did indeed halt the German advance but took heavy losses in doing so, much more so than II SS Panzer Korps did.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Gee Doppleganger, you've questioned my sources several times now.
Are you suggesting that i'm getting info from only the Russians side?
As iv'e mentioned several times before, my info comes from David Glantz, Allen Clarke, John Ericson, John Keegen, Trevor Roper, Antony Beever, Carlo DeEste among many others, on the other hand your sources seem to come largely from the German side [is this what you refer to as "the accurate version?] from the likes of Guderian, who Glantz says laid at Hitler's feet principal responsibility for all failures of the German Army, and Manstein, where Glantz says his opposing force ratios are in conflict with those shown by archival materials of Fremde Heeres 0st (Foreign Armies East), Gehlen's organizations, and of the OKH. Again Soviet superiorities are often overstated, plus the Wikepedia web site, which was a little dubious at best.
To be truthful, I don't see what point you're trying to make though, for no matter where I got this information from, German, Russian or whatever, it doesn't alter the facts, which we both agree on, that Rotmistrov stopped Hauser at Prokhorovka, which is all I said.
You said....
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Hitler was never the same after July 20th, 1944 and he had been slipping away since Stalingrad. If this was due to the onset of his Parkinson's condition or just the way the war was going who can tell. Probably a bit of both.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
By July 20th, 1944 Germany was kaput.
Doppleganger
Active member
Hi Ashes.
Thanks for the links but like I said if you lift text from a source you should acknowledge this.
I think the main reason why I question your perspectives is that you give me the impression of not posting from a balanced viewpoint. Rightly you mention the horrors of the Nazi regime which were worse than any other regime in WW2, by some way. But because you make little or no reference to the fact that other nations were not totally guilt free it does mean that you sometimes come across as biased.
I think typing in text can sometimes obscure or even alter the gist of what one tries to say. You're obviously educated and have read up on the subject but a common theme does seem to run through your posts, that Germans are nastier and more capable of horrific deeds than other nations. Anyone who is even halfway principled is disgusted at how the Nazi's could treat their fellow human beings but the truth is that all human beings are sadly capable of such evil if the right sets of conditions are available.
For the record I thought your statement about Prokhorovka suggested that you hadn't read the more recent viewpoints of that battle. For the record I also agree with much of what you say, but not all.
Thanks for the links but like I said if you lift text from a source you should acknowledge this.
I think the main reason why I question your perspectives is that you give me the impression of not posting from a balanced viewpoint. Rightly you mention the horrors of the Nazi regime which were worse than any other regime in WW2, by some way. But because you make little or no reference to the fact that other nations were not totally guilt free it does mean that you sometimes come across as biased.
I think typing in text can sometimes obscure or even alter the gist of what one tries to say. You're obviously educated and have read up on the subject but a common theme does seem to run through your posts, that Germans are nastier and more capable of horrific deeds than other nations. Anyone who is even halfway principled is disgusted at how the Nazi's could treat their fellow human beings but the truth is that all human beings are sadly capable of such evil if the right sets of conditions are available.
For the record I thought your statement about Prokhorovka suggested that you hadn't read the more recent viewpoints of that battle. For the record I also agree with much of what you say, but not all.
Hi Doppleganger.
You say that I sometimes come across biased and unbalanced, but I think my posts are balanced in regard to the particular threads i'm replying to, for instance, this one is headed "Hitler youth" and the Waffin S.S. were mentioned, you said it committed no more atrocities, and was no more involved in Nazi Party activities, than the Heer units it fought alongside, so I simply gave my views on that subject, therefore I think it's irrelevent to say that although they committed atrocities, "so did all sides", we're not comparing them to others, rather discussing their role within the German military, so from that viewpoint I don't see my posts as biased.
Same as if I were to post on a thread that asked "did the Russians commit war crimes" it would have no bearing on that question to say, well yes, of course they did, but so did the Germans.
Originally you mentioned, that the Wehrmacht committed crimes, but you always add the caveat that "all sides did it", [ and although this is true, it is, as i've said, really irrelevant. ]
The only reason I make any reference to allied war crimes is because you keep mentioning them, but as i've said, I don't think it's pertinent to the subject under discussion.
We've touched briefly upon the subject of whether the Germans as a race were more likely then others to go down the path they did, and as i've said, i'm not sure what the answer to that is [ hopefully we'll never find out ] it's an interesting question, but simply a hypothetical.
As i've also said before, I harbour absolutely no animosity toward the Germans whatsoever, not toward the majority of the general populace during the war, or even the entire Wehrmacht, my revulsion is strictly toward those who participated, directly or indirectly, in what I can only describe as the greatest crimes against mankind in history.
You're obviously a great admirer of the Wehrmacht and it's commanders, and there's no doubt they turned out more then their share of commanders "touched with the genius of warfare" [to quote Carlo DeEste] but I don't think you can separate their performance in the field from the atrocities that went hand in hand with those commanders. Even if the worst they did was look the other way and pretend it wasn't happening, it's hard for me to admire men like that.
To sum up, yes, I acknowledge that crimes were committed by the Allies, but believe my posts have always been directed toward the subject under discussion, which really have nothing to do with Allied crimes, and also don't think [ hopefully ] that i've ever been dishonest, or tried to exaggerate, anything i've said about Germany's role.
You say that I sometimes come across biased and unbalanced, but I think my posts are balanced in regard to the particular threads i'm replying to, for instance, this one is headed "Hitler youth" and the Waffin S.S. were mentioned, you said it committed no more atrocities, and was no more involved in Nazi Party activities, than the Heer units it fought alongside, so I simply gave my views on that subject, therefore I think it's irrelevent to say that although they committed atrocities, "so did all sides", we're not comparing them to others, rather discussing their role within the German military, so from that viewpoint I don't see my posts as biased.
Same as if I were to post on a thread that asked "did the Russians commit war crimes" it would have no bearing on that question to say, well yes, of course they did, but so did the Germans.
Originally you mentioned, that the Wehrmacht committed crimes, but you always add the caveat that "all sides did it", [ and although this is true, it is, as i've said, really irrelevant. ]
The only reason I make any reference to allied war crimes is because you keep mentioning them, but as i've said, I don't think it's pertinent to the subject under discussion.
We've touched briefly upon the subject of whether the Germans as a race were more likely then others to go down the path they did, and as i've said, i'm not sure what the answer to that is [ hopefully we'll never find out ] it's an interesting question, but simply a hypothetical.
As i've also said before, I harbour absolutely no animosity toward the Germans whatsoever, not toward the majority of the general populace during the war, or even the entire Wehrmacht, my revulsion is strictly toward those who participated, directly or indirectly, in what I can only describe as the greatest crimes against mankind in history.
You're obviously a great admirer of the Wehrmacht and it's commanders, and there's no doubt they turned out more then their share of commanders "touched with the genius of warfare" [to quote Carlo DeEste] but I don't think you can separate their performance in the field from the atrocities that went hand in hand with those commanders. Even if the worst they did was look the other way and pretend it wasn't happening, it's hard for me to admire men like that.
To sum up, yes, I acknowledge that crimes were committed by the Allies, but believe my posts have always been directed toward the subject under discussion, which really have nothing to do with Allied crimes, and also don't think [ hopefully ] that i've ever been dishonest, or tried to exaggerate, anything i've said about Germany's role.
Doppleganger
Active member
I happened to start reading 'The Odessa File' by Frederick Forsyth, about the re-emergence of Nazism in 1960s Germany. Although a work of fiction it does obtain a harrowing account of the diary of a former concentration camp victim which reminded me of how utterly awful the crimes against humanity the Nazis committed were. When one reads accounts like it's not hard to see why all German officials and soldiers were hated with a vengeance by the liberating Allied forces. And not hard to see why anyone who considers themselves a human being would be either. They were truly and utterly disgusting.
I do admire the Wehrmacht, its commanders and tactics and do not hide this. 'Look the other way' was exactly what most of them did and Guderian in particular, was no doubt aware of the slave labour that was 'hired' to work in German industry in WW2. He would have known that they were Jews and other 'undesirables' but the question for me is was he aware of the exact nature of the Concentration Camps and what they were really for. He was not in the inner circle of the Nazi Party and as a General who answered back he was seen as someone who was not to be fully trusted. For this reason I don't think he did know of the 'Final Solution'. I think if he had my admiration of him would be severely diminished but my interest is purely apolitical, where possible, if it truly is possible to be apolitical when talking about Nazi Germany. Manstein probably knew less than Guderian.
I'm sure I don't (and certainly hope I don't) come across as someone who is a Nazi apologist. I utterly despise the atrocities they carried out in WW2, which were far worse than any other nation, although the Japanese gave them a run for their money.
I do admire the Wehrmacht, its commanders and tactics and do not hide this. 'Look the other way' was exactly what most of them did and Guderian in particular, was no doubt aware of the slave labour that was 'hired' to work in German industry in WW2. He would have known that they were Jews and other 'undesirables' but the question for me is was he aware of the exact nature of the Concentration Camps and what they were really for. He was not in the inner circle of the Nazi Party and as a General who answered back he was seen as someone who was not to be fully trusted. For this reason I don't think he did know of the 'Final Solution'. I think if he had my admiration of him would be severely diminished but my interest is purely apolitical, where possible, if it truly is possible to be apolitical when talking about Nazi Germany. Manstein probably knew less than Guderian.
I'm sure I don't (and certainly hope I don't) come across as someone who is a Nazi apologist. I utterly despise the atrocities they carried out in WW2, which were far worse than any other nation, although the Japanese gave them a run for their money.
I've read "The Odessa File", it's a great novel.
And no, i've never considered you as a Nazi apologist, as I said in my last reply, you've been fair, and acknowledged the atrocities they carried out.
If I do seem to be over zealous in my comdenation, I think it's partly for the reason that as each year passes, and the war recedes more in peoples memories, there seem to be more people like Viktor Suvorov, James Bacque, and David Irvine, among others, pushing their revisionists theories, and even more worrying, having them believed by many.
Even on boards like these, there seem quite a few people who seem to have no real concept of the full horrors that occurred, especially in Russia, and I believe it's vitally important to remember precisely what happened, and to make sure that something like that can never happen again, especially with things the way they are today.
And no, i've never considered you as a Nazi apologist, as I said in my last reply, you've been fair, and acknowledged the atrocities they carried out.
If I do seem to be over zealous in my comdenation, I think it's partly for the reason that as each year passes, and the war recedes more in peoples memories, there seem to be more people like Viktor Suvorov, James Bacque, and David Irvine, among others, pushing their revisionists theories, and even more worrying, having them believed by many.
Even on boards like these, there seem quite a few people who seem to have no real concept of the full horrors that occurred, especially in Russia, and I believe it's vitally important to remember precisely what happened, and to make sure that something like that can never happen again, especially with things the way they are today.