Hitler Youth - Page 2

August 3rd, 2005  
Hi Doppleganger.

Here's a few links to the Hitler youth, one of them mentions that the kids were so indoctrinated they even ratted on their own parents......





You said __________________________________________________ __________________________________________

All armies committed attrocities in WW2. The Germans no doubt started it but no army was free from the stain of war crimes.
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You've said this many times now, and though it's true that all sides commit crimes in war, are you honestly comparing the two?
Surely you're aware of the full extent of the crimes committed by the German army and Waffin S.S. in Russia?
All iv'e seen you acknowidge is 'that each side shot prisoners'

The Whermacht murdered 2 million P.O.W,s and assisted the Einzengruppen in mudering millions of civilians.

The Russian P.O.Ws were crammed in cages, stripped of there winter clothing, unfed, dying of untreated wounds, succumbing to diseases, and the Germans, afraid to even go into the cages for fear of infection, often used flame throwers to incinerate them all, dead, dying and wounded.
The Waffin S.S, from the very start, began with attrocities against the British in France, before they even got to the Eastern front. Then, when not fighting the Red army, conducted a deliberate reign of terror against the so called untermench, among the worst of these was the Totenkopf or 'Deaths head' regiment, who routinely shot school children, doused hospital inmates with gasolene and burnt them alive, and of course helped the Einzengruppen in their mass murder of Jews and 'undesireables'

The real untermench were 'men' like this.

I could give you a list as long as your arm, of mass attrocities commited by the Waffin S.S. in France, Russia, Italy, virtually anywhere they went.

Nothing remotely aproached this in the West, and any Russian crimes, bad though they were, were retaliation for the greatest crimes in history.

To suggest that the Allies, paticually the British and Americans, commited atrocities of this kind, or this scale, is a little missleading, dont you think?

You said....
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What version of Prokhorovka are you referring to? The official 'Great Patriotic War' version or the accurate version. The Waffen SS units forming II SS Panzer Korps performed the best of all German tank units at Kursk, but only because their commander Paul Hausser came up with a very good tactical plan. 5th Guards Army and 5th Guards Tank Army did indeed halt the German advance but took heavy losses in doing so, much more so than II SS Panzer Korps did.
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Gee Doppleganger, you've questioned my sources several times now.

Are you suggesting that i'm getting info from only the Russians side?

As iv'e mentioned several times before, my info comes from David Glantz, Allen Clarke, John Ericson, John Keegen, Trevor Roper, Antony Beever, Carlo DeEste among many others, on the other hand your sources seem to come largely from the German side [is this what you refer to as "the accurate version?] from the likes of Guderian, who Glantz says laid at Hitler's feet principal responsibility for all failures of the German Army, and Manstein, where Glantz says his opposing force ratios are in conflict with those shown by archival materials of Fremde Heeres 0st (Foreign Armies East), Gehlen's organizations, and of the OKH. Again Soviet superiorities are often overstated, plus the Wikepedia web site, which was a little dubious at best.

To be truthful, I don't see what point you're trying to make though, for no matter where I got this information from, German, Russian or whatever, it doesn't alter the facts, which we both agree on, that Rotmistrov stopped Hauser at Prokhorovka, which is all I said.

You said....
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Hitler was never the same after July 20th, 1944 and he had been slipping away since Stalingrad. If this was due to the onset of his Parkinson's condition or just the way the war was going who can tell. Probably a bit of both.
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By July 20th, 1944 Germany was kaput.
August 3rd, 2005  
Hi Ashes.

Thanks for the links but like I said if you lift text from a source you should acknowledge this.

I think the main reason why I question your perspectives is that you give me the impression of not posting from a balanced viewpoint. Rightly you mention the horrors of the Nazi regime which were worse than any other regime in WW2, by some way. But because you make little or no reference to the fact that other nations were not totally guilt free it does mean that you sometimes come across as biased.

I think typing in text can sometimes obscure or even alter the gist of what one tries to say. You're obviously educated and have read up on the subject but a common theme does seem to run through your posts, that Germans are nastier and more capable of horrific deeds than other nations. Anyone who is even halfway principled is disgusted at how the Nazi's could treat their fellow human beings but the truth is that all human beings are sadly capable of such evil if the right sets of conditions are available.

For the record I thought your statement about Prokhorovka suggested that you hadn't read the more recent viewpoints of that battle. For the record I also agree with much of what you say, but not all.
August 6th, 2005  
Hi Doppleganger.

You say that I sometimes come across biased and unbalanced, but I think my posts are balanced in regard to the particular threads i'm replying to, for instance, this one is headed "Hitler youth" and the Waffin S.S. were mentioned, you said it committed no more atrocities, and was no more involved in Nazi Party activities, than the Heer units it fought alongside, so I simply gave my views on that subject, therefore I think it's irrelevent to say that although they committed atrocities, "so did all sides", we're not comparing them to others, rather discussing their role within the German military, so from that viewpoint I don't see my posts as biased.

Same as if I were to post on a thread that asked "did the Russians commit war crimes" it would have no bearing on that question to say, well yes, of course they did, but so did the Germans.
Originally you mentioned, that the Wehrmacht committed crimes, but you always add the caveat that "all sides did it", [ and although this is true, it is, as i've said, really irrelevant. ]

The only reason I make any reference to allied war crimes is because you keep mentioning them, but as i've said, I don't think it's pertinent to the subject under discussion.

We've touched briefly upon the subject of whether the Germans as a race were more likely then others to go down the path they did, and as i've said, i'm not sure what the answer to that is [ hopefully we'll never find out ] it's an interesting question, but simply a hypothetical.

As i've also said before, I harbour absolutely no animosity toward the Germans whatsoever, not toward the majority of the general populace during the war, or even the entire Wehrmacht, my revulsion is strictly toward those who participated, directly or indirectly, in what I can only describe as the greatest crimes against mankind in history.

You're obviously a great admirer of the Wehrmacht and it's commanders, and there's no doubt they turned out more then their share of commanders "touched with the genius of warfare" [to quote Carlo DeEste] but I don't think you can separate their performance in the field from the atrocities that went hand in hand with those commanders. Even if the worst they did was look the other way and pretend it wasn't happening, it's hard for me to admire men like that.

To sum up, yes, I acknowledge that crimes were committed by the Allies, but believe my posts have always been directed toward the subject under discussion, which really have nothing to do with Allied crimes, and also don't think [ hopefully ] that i've ever been dishonest, or tried to exaggerate, anything i've said about Germany's role.
August 6th, 2005  
I happened to start reading 'The Odessa File' by Frederick Forsyth, about the re-emergence of Nazism in 1960s Germany. Although a work of fiction it does obtain a harrowing account of the diary of a former concentration camp victim which reminded me of how utterly awful the crimes against humanity the Nazis committed were. When one reads accounts like it's not hard to see why all German officials and soldiers were hated with a vengeance by the liberating Allied forces. And not hard to see why anyone who considers themselves a human being would be either. They were truly and utterly disgusting.

I do admire the Wehrmacht, its commanders and tactics and do not hide this. 'Look the other way' was exactly what most of them did and Guderian in particular, was no doubt aware of the slave labour that was 'hired' to work in German industry in WW2. He would have known that they were Jews and other 'undesirables' but the question for me is was he aware of the exact nature of the Concentration Camps and what they were really for. He was not in the inner circle of the Nazi Party and as a General who answered back he was seen as someone who was not to be fully trusted. For this reason I don't think he did know of the 'Final Solution'. I think if he had my admiration of him would be severely diminished but my interest is purely apolitical, where possible, if it truly is possible to be apolitical when talking about Nazi Germany. Manstein probably knew less than Guderian.

I'm sure I don't (and certainly hope I don't) come across as someone who is a Nazi apologist. I utterly despise the atrocities they carried out in WW2, which were far worse than any other nation, although the Japanese gave them a run for their money.
August 8th, 2005  
I've read "The Odessa File", it's a great novel.
And no, i've never considered you as a Nazi apologist, as I said in my last reply, you've been fair, and acknowledged the atrocities they carried out.

If I do seem to be over zealous in my comdenation, I think it's partly for the reason that as each year passes, and the war recedes more in peoples memories, there seem to be more people like Viktor Suvorov, James Bacque, and David Irvine, among others, pushing their revisionists theories, and even more worrying, having them believed by many.

Even on boards like these, there seem quite a few people who seem to have no real concept of the full horrors that occurred, especially in Russia, and I believe it's vitally important to remember precisely what happened, and to make sure that something like that can never happen again, especially with things the way they are today.