Hitler and Sung Tsu - Page 6




 
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December 27th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
I don't think in 1939-41 the RN did nearly as well as the much smaller KM or as the Imperial navy, losing the Royal Oak in its base, an aircraft carrier to cannon in Norway, allowing German torpedo boats to sneak in and sink ships in Dunkirk, where they lost so many destroyers that Roosevelt had to send 50 WW I destroyers. It simply does not make sense that the largest navy in the world would depend on old American destroyers for several months.
The carriers, its most expensive and important weapon had obsolete planes, the ships had inferior artillery and radar to that of the Germans (relatively new comers in ship, heavy artillery and radar design).
The simple fact that the lone Bismarck required two torpedo plane attacks and a whole fleet which launched 2,800 shells, 700 of which were 14" to 16" and only 4 of the latter hit the ship and dozens of torpedoes to be sunk says a lot about the capabilities of the RN, as does the trouncing in the Pacific by a small nation discounted as primitive by the mighty British Empire.
December 27th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
I don't think in 1939-41 the RN did nearly as well as the much smaller KM or as the Imperial navy, losing the Royal Oak in its base, an aircraft carrier to cannon in Norway, allowing German torpedo boats to sneak in and sink ships in Dunkirk, where they lost so many destroyers that Roosevelt had to send 50 WW I destroyers. It simply does not make sense that the largest navy in the world would depend on old American destroyers for several months.
The carriers, its most expensive and important weapon had obsolete planes, the ships had inferior artillery and radar to that of the Germans (relatively new comers in ship, heavy artillery and radar design).
The simple fact that the lone Bismarck required two torpedo plane attacks and a whole fleet which launched 2,800 shells, 700 of which were 14" to 16" and only 4 of the latter hit the ship and dozens of torpedoes to be sunk says a lot about the capabilities of the RN, as does the trouncing in the Pacific by a small nation discounted as primitive by the mighty British Empire.
I was reading something the other day about the Battle of the Denmark Straights which put forward a theory that it was a shell from the Prinz Eugen and not the Bismarck that sunk the Hood.

Now on to Dunkirk:
Destroyer Losses Britain 29th May - 1 June 1940:
HMS Grenade H-86 (G Class Destroyer) Sunk by air attack
HMS Wakeful H-88 (W Class Destroyer) Sunk Torpedoed by E-Boat.
HMS Grafton H-89 (G Class Destroyer) Sunk by U-62
HMS Basilisk H-11 (B Class Destroyer) Heavily damaged by air, sunk by HMS Whitehall to prevent capture.
HMS Havant H-32 (H Class Destroyer) Heavily damaged by air and scuttled by HMS Saltash after a failed recovery attempt.
HMS Keith D-06 (B Class Destroyer) Sunk by air attack.

Total British Destroyers lost at Dunkirk = 6

Now I think the Home Fleet had 85-90 Destroyers available to it in June 1940 so while I am sure it missed those 6 ships the losses were far from catastrophic so now we move on to the 50 US destroyers which were loaned by Roosevelt as part of the Destroyers for Bases deal and used primarily for convoy escort duty to free up the newer Destroyers for other operations.

Here is a good little write up on the deal...

Quote:
Destroyers for Bases Agreement

The Destroyers for Bases Agreement between the United States and the United Kingdom, September 2, 1940, transferred 50 obsolete destroyers from the United States Navy in exchange for land rights on British possessions.
1 Background
For the United Kingdom, the Second World War started in September 1939 and after the brief non-events of the Phony War, the Battle of France saw France and the Low Countries overrun with Nazi German Blitzkrieg. This left the United Kingdom and her Empire standing alone against Hitler.

The United States was sympathetic to the British cause, though they officially following the policy of isolationism, and were constrained by elections. The British were in immediate need of ships; they took long to build and were now facing the Second Battle of the Atlantic in which German U-boats threatened Britain's supplies of food and other resources.

2 The deal
The British Ambassador, the Marquess of Lothian, sent a request to the United States Secretary of State, Cordell Hull. Who returned a positive response on September 2.

In exchange for "naval and military equipment and material" the US was granted land for the establishment of naval or air bases, on 99-year rent-free leases, on:

Avalon Peninsula
South and eastern coasts of Newfoundland
Great Bay of Bermuda
Eastern side of the Bahamas
Southern coast of Jamaica
Western coast of St. Lucia,
West coast of Trinidad
Gulf of Paria,
Antigua Antigua Air Station
British Guiana within fifty miles of Georgetown.
The US were allowed all the rights, power, and authority within the bases leased.

The US accepted the "generous action... to enhance the national security of the United States" and immediately transferred fifty United States Navy' destroyers "generally referred to as the twelve hundred-ton type." Forty-three went to the Royal Navy and seven to the Royal Canadian Navy.
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Dest...:Agreement.htm
December 28th, 2011  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I was reading something the other day about the Battle of the Denmark Straights which put forward a theory that it was a shell from the Prinz Eugen and not the Bismarck that sunk the Hood.

Now on to Dunkirk:
Destroyer Losses Britain 29th May - 1 June 1940:
HMS Grenade H-86 (G Class Destroyer) Sunk by air attack
HMS Wakeful H-88 (W Class Destroyer) Sunk Torpedoed by E-Boat.
HMS Grafton H-89 (G Class Destroyer) Sunk by U-62
HMS Basilisk H-11 (B Class Destroyer) Heavily damaged by air, sunk by HMS Whitehall to prevent capture.
HMS Havant H-32 (H Class Destroyer) Heavily damaged by air and scuttled by HMS Saltash after a failed recovery attempt.
HMS Keith D-06 (B Class Destroyer) Sunk by air attack.

Total British Destroyers lost at Dunkirk = 6

Now I think the Home Fleet had 85-90 Destroyers available to it in June 1940 so while I am sure it missed those 6 ships the losses were far from catastrophic so now we move on to the 50 US destroyers which were loaned by Roosevelt as part of the Destroyers for Bases deal and used primarily for convoy escort duty to free up the newer Destroyers for other operations.

Here is a good little write up on the deal...



http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Dest...:Agreement.htm
One ref says R.N. had 184 DD @ the beginning of the War. One year later 21 new DD added & 34 sunk reducing number to 171, but half of those in dockyards due to damage from various sources. 16 damaged in Norway & a further 16 during Dunkirk. This would seem to leave apx 50 in service, so 50 flush deckers was a substantial reenforcement.
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December 28th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
One ref says R.N. had 184 DD @ the beginning of the War. One year later 21 new DD added & 34 sunk reducing number to 171, but half of those in dockyards due to damage from various sources. 16 damaged in Norway & a further 16 during Dunkirk. This would seem to leave apx 50 in service, so 50 flush deckers was a substantial reenforcement.
Yep but I suspect you will find that the 184 Destroyers was the total for the RN and they were spread out world wide the only Destroyers in action at Dunkirk were the ones attached to the Home Fleet of which they lost 6 and I have no doubt a further 16 were damaged there as well either way those losses are still not catastrophic.

But still the 50 replacement "obsolete" destroyers from the US were earmarked for convoy defence on the Atlantic routes allowing the RN to maintain its combat efficiency.
December 28th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
The few foreign destroyers (Polish, Dutch, etc) were also very helpful excorts for convoys, etc, in 1940. The supposedly mighty RN was rather ill equipped and used.
December 28th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
One ref says R.N. had 184 DD @ the beginning of the War. One year later 21 new DD added & 34 sunk reducing number to 171, but half of those in dockyards due to damage from various sources. 16 damaged in Norway & a further 16 during Dunkirk. This would seem to leave apx 50 in service, so 50 flush deckers was a substantial reenforcement.
I think I can finally give you fairly accurate numbers...

In early June 1940 the Home Fleet consisted of:

127 Destroyers.
22 Of them were being repaired.
4 More were being refitted.

Further to this attached to the Home Fleet were:
2 Norwegian Destroyers
1 Dutch Destroyer
2 Polish Destroyers both of whom were under repair until mid July.
5 Canadian Destroyers 1 of which was refitting.

Destroyers that were due back in service within 10 days I recorded as fit for service so they are not counted in the damaged numbers, this number includes Destroyer Escorts.
December 28th, 2011  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Admiral David Beatty said it to his flag captain Alfred Chatfield on the bridge of HMS Lion during the Battle of Jutland after hearing the news that the Princess Royal had exploded although apparently he just said "there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today."
Looks like you got the quote correct, but it was after Indefagitable & Queen Mary blew up...
December 28th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
Looks like you got the quote correct, but it was after Indefagitable & Queen Mary blew up...
Fair enough.

Here is the information I had used...

Quote:
The loss of Queen Mary left Beatty stunned. He had engaged Hipper fully confident of his numerical superiority of six battlecruisers to the German five. Now within the space of three quarters of an hour he had lost two of them. No sooner had the report of Queen Mary’s destruction reached him than Princess Royal was engulfed in a torrent of shell splashes that completely hid her from view, and a signalman on Lion’s bridge reported in dismay, “Princess Royal blown up, sir!” Nonplussed, Beatty turned to Captain Chatfield and blurted out, “There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!” Just then Princess Royal steamed out of the splashes, smoke, and spray and spat a broadside at Moltke.
http://warandgame.com/2011/06/04/%E2...80%9D-part-ii/
December 28th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
The Polish destroyer Grom had just been lost in Narvik also in June 1940 and the French navy was still in the game but would soon drop out, making a big difference.
December 28th, 2011  
42RM
 
Are there are any limits on how many stupidities the British Empire has committed?


Britain was central to Allied victory in World War II. Some British contributions: The Royal Air Force defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle Of Britain (1940/41), thus destroying the myth of Germany's invincibility. Southern England was the staging ground for D-Day. If Britain had fallen to the Nazis, there would have been no springboard to invade Normandy and ultimately defeat Hitler. Britain supplied and trained resistance movements all over Europe. British commandoes wreaked havoc on German submarine bases and other communication and supply lines. British, ANZAC and South African troops first drove the Italians out of North Africa and then defeated the Germans at El Alamein in 1942. The Axis defeat in North Africa provided the opportunity for the invasion of Europe via Italy as the newly-arrived American troops joined forces with the British and colonial soldiers. British and Indian forces tied up the Imperial Japanese Army in Burma for the duration of the war.

Britain's airborne divisions shared the responsibility for vital pre-D Day landings with the US. British airborne troops of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry captured the key Pegasus bridge the night before the Normandy invasion - renowned US military historian Stephen E Ambrose believes the invasion might have failed without this.
British and Canadian soldiers were responsible for Gold, Sword and Juno beaches on D-Day June 6 1944.

British commando and long-range recconaissance troops were the pre-cursors of modern-day special forces and fought successfully behind the lines on many fronts. The Royal Navy captured a German submarine carrying an Enigma coding machine which enabled the Allies to decipher German radio traffic.

It is incorrect to consider the British as minor allies of the United States in WWII. That perception is a modern one, brought about no doubt by Britain's relative military insignificance today. Britain's imperial power was on the wane when the war started but she still commanded vast resources, notably the allegiance of the soldiers of the Empire: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa and India. Britain was the mainstay of the struggle against the Nazis for two years before America entered the war. America would certainly not have defeated the Nazis on her own, while Britain would most likely have eventually been forced into a treaty with Hitler if America had not supplied her with money and weapons and later entered the war.