Heckler & Koch 416 - How would You Rate it? - Page 2




 
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March 30th, 2012  
MrCatch22
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon2012
I've heard some good things about this weapon. Better reliability than the M4/M16, for instance.

Can the resident gunheads chime in on this?

http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/hk416_specs.asp
WAY overpriced...and it annoys me when manufacturers modify a standard platform just enough that it essentially becomes propriatary. No need to restate what others have stated. If you like piston guns, my brother-in-law picked up a Ruger SR-556 that groups well and is ultra-reliable. I prefer direct impingement myself, but it's what i know best and am most familiar with.
March 30th, 2012  
5.56X45mm
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCatch22
WAY overpriced...and it annoys me when manufacturers modify a standard platform just enough that it essentially becomes propriatary. No need to restate what others have stated. If you like piston guns, my brother-in-law picked up a Ruger SR-556 that groups well and is ultra-reliable. I prefer direct impingement myself, but it's what i know best and am most familiar with.
Suffers from Bolt Carrier Tilt... along with the HK416...

What's bolt carrier tilt? It's physics. The op rod doesn't hit the center of the carrier, it hits the top. So when the op-rod hits the top of the carrier it pushes the rear of the carrier downwards. Evidence of carrier tilt is wear on the top front of the upper and the bottom of the receiver tube where the BCG enters it.

It doesn't happen with DGI because the gas enters the BCG through the gas key and then enters a cavity in the carrier (sealed by the gas rings on the bolt). The cavity is centered over the bore so there is no carrier tilt.

Stuff like this happens with carrier tilt:





Why is there tilt? There is tilt because Gas Piston AR's do not have a carrier key that is a gas tube like on DGI. On a DGI, the gas pushes the bolt carrier back with pressure on the carrier key. The carrier key of a GP is a solid so the piston has something to strike to move the BCG. Since the piston is striking the BCG from the top and off axis (off-center), it causes the BCG to enter the buffer tube at a downward angle. DGI does not have carrier tilt because as the gas enters the bolt carrier key, it is bled off and the BCG enter's the buffer tube straight in. GP piston action strikes the carrier like a hammer, therefore causing tilt.

Why is it a problem? Because the BCG is tearing up the buffer tube and the rear of the receiver (the threaded area that the buffer tube screws into).

Another problem with GP-AR's is they cause the gas key screws (screws that hold the bolt carrier key) to also work harder. Keys have been known to come loose and even break on rifles. Many companies do not stake keys on the bolt carrier properly and even if they did, the stakes will not stop the keys from breaking some companies have moved to the one-peice carrier Ruger's rifle. But that still doesn't solve bolt carrier tilt.

The HK416, Ruger SR-556, and every other gas piston operated AR-15 is a answer to a problem that never existed.

As for them being cleaner..... the only difference is the location of the carbon buildup. With a DGI, the bolt carrier is the piston and the carbon is deposited in the chamber area.... which is actually a very large area. With a GP, the gas deposits the carbon forward of the bolt carrier in the gas block where the pistol head is.... guess what? You still need to clean that area to prevent the piston from seizing and since it is a much smaller area you need to clean it more. The only way to make a GP rifle more reliable is to have an adjustable gas system like a FN FAL. That only works simply because you are allowing more gas pressure to go through a dirty system thus allowing a seized piston to be pushed free by the gas pressure. But guess what? It's still gonna seize up at some point.
March 30th, 2012  
MrCatch22
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm
Suffers from Bolt Carrier Tilt... along with the HK416...

Why is there tilt? There is tilt because Gas Piston AR's do not have a carrier key that is a gas tube like on DGI. On a DGI, the gas pushes the bolt carrier back with pressure on the carrier key. The carrier key of a GP is a solid so the piston has something to strike to move the BCG. Since the piston is striking the BCG from the top and off axis (off-center), it causes the BCG to enter the buffer tube at a downward angle. DGI does not have carrier tilt because as the gas enters the bolt carrier key, it is bled off and the BCG enter's the buffer tube straight in. GP piston action strikes the carrier like a hammer, therefore causing tilt.

Why is it a problem? Because the BCG is tearing up the buffer tube and the rear of the receiver (the threaded area that the buffer tube screws into).

Another problem with GP-AR's is they cause the gas key screws (screws that hold the bolt carrier key) to also work harder. Keys have been known to come loose and even break on rifles. Many companies do not stake keys on the bolt carrier properly and even if they did, the stakes will not stop the keys from breaking some companies have moved to the one-peice carrier Ruger's rifle. But that still doesn't solve bolt carrier tilt.

The HK416, Ruger SR-556, and every other gas piston operated AR-15 is a answer to a problem that never existed.

As for them being cleaner..... the only difference is the location of the carbon buildup. With a DGI, the bolt carrier is the piston and the carbon is deposited in the chamber area.... which is actually a very large area. With a GP, the gas deposits the carbon forward of the bolt carrier in the gas block where the pistol head is.... guess what? You still need to clean that area to prevent the piston from seizing and since it is a much smaller area you need to clean it more. The only way to make a GP rifle more reliable is to have an adjustable gas system like a FN FAL. That only works simply because you are allowing more gas pressure to go through a dirty system thus allowing a seized piston to be pushed free by the gas pressure. But guess what? It's still gonna seize up at some point.
Agree with all. Like I said, I prefer impingement. I also get why some favor piston guns, though. The Ruger I mention has 4 gas settings. I think the big thing is that most people will put 2k rounds through their weapons in a lifetime, and don't wanna spend hours maintaining the dreaded star chamber. To the average shooter, tilt is an unknown, abd they don't shoot enough for any non-superficial issues to develop. Just my 2 cents.
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March 30th, 2012  
Abbadon2012
 
The Ruger SR-556 is a sexy beast. I'll study that some more, and see if it's a good alternative to the 416.

Thanks to all the gunheads for your input.
April 6th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon2012
The Ruger SR-556 is a sexy beast. I'll study that some more, and see if it's a good alternative to the 416.

Thanks to all the gunheads for your input.
So the Ruger is an AR-15 configuration? Does it have the 6.8 too?
April 7th, 2012  
HindStrike
 
 
No, it is only available in 5.56.
April 7th, 2012  
MrCatch22
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
So the Ruger is an AR-15 configuration? Does it have the 6.8 too?
I know Ruger planned on a 6.8mm SPC version at some point, but I don't konw if they released it. Was just talking to my neighbor today about getting into reloading. I think that's the only way I could get into 6.8…you're looking at .75-1.00 a round…for the cheap stuff Great round though.
April 7th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCatch22
I know Ruger planned on a 6.8mm SPC version at some point, but I don't konw if they released it. Was just talking to my neighbor today about getting into reloading. I think that's the only way I could get into 6.8…you're looking at .75-1.00 a round…for the cheap stuff Great round though.

I like the 6.8mm SPC, so if I lived in the US and in one of the states that allow some interesting toys, I would perhaps go for the Barrett REC 7. When I was in the service, we had the Swedish version of the German G3, nice cal on that one 7.62x51, a bit clumsy weapon though, so when I experienced the 5.56, it felt like a toy so the 6.8 must be somewhere between. What weapons do have the 6.8mm SPC?
April 7th, 2012  
HindStrike
 
 
Many companies sell conversion kits for ar's and ak's but i know that the bushmaster acr, barrett rrec7, lwrc m6 series, and probably a couple others that i can't remember come in the 6.8
April 9th, 2012  
5.56X45mm
 
 
Ruger released the SR-556 and Mini-14 in 6.8SPC but the cartridge is dead. SF units aren't even playing with it anymore. The two non-5.56x45mm cartridges are the 6.5 Grendal and the .300BLK. But even them those are two very small niche cartridges.

5.56x45mm is doing well and is here to stay.
 


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