Healthcare Bill vs. US Senate

Sukio said:
The thing that bothers me that almost every plan, shows me the eventual death of all the insurance companies:( what about those jobs? Losing them and putting more people out of work, while at the same time, it was the incentive of the dollar that allowed our health care system to act somewhat quickly to one of their clients. Now with the government running it just going to see the doctor may take forever. There is no incentive.

But, once you kill the insurance companies, there is no going back.
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The same politicians that are whining and crying about this same point saw no issue with letting the automotive industry die on the vine. For them I have no sympathy.
 
Capitalism is cruel, I will admit but the thing that I see, is usually when you turn to the government to catch a ailing industry, they usually mess it up more that it already was. The issue with the automotive industry doesn't really pertain to this thread, but I will say this anyway, the U.S. government will let small businesses fail no problem, but with the auto industry they bailed them out, what I don't feel comfortable with this in capitalism, putting safety nets like this in place, instead of just letting business run its course, if you let a business fail, let it go, thats what the system is designed for, and also in given time capitalism kinda heals itself. I'm not saying no government involvement is bad, by all means protecting consumers is a good idea to get the government involved in.

But thats a story for another thread.
 
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Social Security will be bankrupt in 30 years
In 1967, the House Ways and Means Committee predicted future Medicare would cost about $12 billion. The actual number was $110 billion and last year it was well over $400 billion
They "estimated" $1 billion would last four months with "cash for clunkers." It was broke in one week.
This what happens whent he government gets involved, im a liberterian at heart, i think if its not broken, the government will break it, now health care systems is broken, and the idea of a public issurance as a option doesnt sound like a bad idea, but a complete takeover of the health system by the government doesnt
 
Social Security will be broke only if we keep cutting funding to it; such cuts are stopping.

The Auto industry is turning around. GM halved their losses and Ford is showing profit.

What else would you like?
 
ford never got any money, and as a son of a retired GM worker my parents are going to get screwed so, i dont care, and its the government that made social security go bankrupt, they cant just leave money alone they have to spend it
 
Sounds like a lot of Rhetoric.
Sukio, you're right, that topic is for another thread but there is a good reason for why it is that way.
Bacara, if it isn't broken, the government isn't going to touch it. Plus, usually what happens after the government buys failing companies is that they auction it off.
We gotta stop talking about the cars.
Good subject, wrong thread.
 
Bacara said:
ford never got any money, and as a son of a retired GM worker my parents are going to get screwed so, i dont care, and its the government that made social security go bankrupt, they cant just leave money alone they have to spend it
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As the grandson of a man who worked for GM for 35 years, who is 78 years old, and has a mild form of leukemia, letting GM die is exactly how he would be screwed, because under the current healthcare system in this country there is no way either he or his wife of 50 years could get health insurance, save for the increasingly small portion provided by an underfunded Medicare.

I agree, that it was the government that killed Social Security and Medicare in the 1980s, when we chose to concentrate on military spending and pull out the last couple bricks holding up the Soviet Union. But these are systems that, with the proper funding, were quite successful, and a properly funded healthcare system will be, too.
 
Bacara said:
yes but i was merely replying to his comments
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That's my point.


Health care coverage should not be employer dependent because that reduces labor flexibility. For example if someone wanted to move from one part of the country to another, the move might be prevented because of uncertainty of health coverage.
Nothing, however, should stop an employer from giving its employees additional coverage if it chooses to make it one of those things it does in order to attract new employees and retain those who work there.
 
Bacara said:
im far from partisan, im quite liberal in most social issues, and im more conservative on fiscal issues. That whole phrase "all of europe is doing so we should to" WE have the largest economy in the world and the most freedoms, i like america the way it is. Also something needs to be done by the issue, no one, exept exsteme right wingers, disputes that but to jump on socialized health care is careless "That government is best which governs the least" Thoreau

heres a couple of interesting links
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/25/10-surprising-facts-about-american-health-care/
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/editorial-solution_to_health_care_crisis.htm
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is australia Stalinist russia or something?
or Europe for that matter?
...
i would love just to be able to study America as a society most fascinating and truly unique in its workings for better or for worse...
 
I know I'm going to get blasted for this but it's important to this topic:

Medicare and Medicaid were put into place to protect the uninsured and underinsured. Now we need to overhaul everything because medicaid and medicare are failing. Why are they failing? (Prepare to flame) Illegal Immigrants. According to the center for Immigration Studies, in 2002 alone Illegals cost medicaid (American born children of illegal immigrants are eligible for medicaid) 2.5 Billion dollars. Treatment for unisured illegals costs the government an additional 2.2 Billion dollars a year. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
That's where the problem is. It doesn't matter what the Government does. If they keep providing for people who don't contribute the best plan in the world is bound to fail. Nothing will be resolved until we address the immigration issue.
 
John Lydon, I see what you're saying, but it's not the only reason. I mean, we have people sneaking into Canada to get basic doctor's care, because it's affordable there and not here. Medicaid and Medicare are failing because they are just as underfunded as our education system.
 
captiva303 said:
is australia Stalinist russia or something?
or Europe for that matter?
...
i would love just to be able to study America as a society most fascinating and truly unique in its workings for better or for worse...
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you are allowed to own far less guns than we are in America, in australia i would not be able to own my two m1 garands
 
Bacara said:
you are allowed to own far less guns than we are in America, in australia i would not be able to own my two m1 garands
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And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the ULTIMATE gague of freedom! :-D
George said:
He's pointing out why they are underfunded, Illegals who contribute little, cost lots, for instance.
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I understand that. However, even without these large amounts of immigrants it's not necessarily the best funded system out there.

The best way to keep these immigrant numbers down is not to up border patrols or anything to do with the border. What will slow this flow of immigrants is a stable Mexico.
 
Bacara said:
you are allowed to own far less guns than we are in America, in australia i would not be able to own my two m1 garands
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technically you could own them you would just have to get the relevant licenses...
unfortunately the process is near impossible for mere mortals...

lol i find it amazing that Americans consider the ownership of weaponry a fundamental and necessary right...

but still atleast my rights can not be circumvented
but any ways...
what is the reason that the US has so much difficulty with accepting the idea of a publicly health system?
 
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The Other Guy said:
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the ULTIMATE gague of freedom! :-D

I understand that. However, even without these large amounts of immigrants it's not necessarily the best funded system out there.

The best way to keep these immigrant numbers down is not to up border patrols or anything to do with the border. What will slow this flow of immigrants is a stable Mexico.
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Medicaid and Medicare would just need minor tweaking at this point if congress would have stepped up 10-15 years ago and addressed the immigration problem. Now we are looking at having to overhaul everything to make ends meet.
 
captiva303 said:
technically you could own them you would just have to get the relevant licenses...
unfortunately the process is near impossible for mere mortals...

lol i find it amazing that Americans consider the ownership of weaponry a fundamental and necessary right...

but still atleast my rights can not be circumvented
but any ways...
what is the reason that the US has so much difficulty with accepting the idea of a publicly health system?
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At any moment in Oz politicians can suddenly decide to ban your guns. I heard a story that pump shotguns were added to the semi-auto ban because 1 ploitican happened to watch 1 of the terminator movies the night before.
Being dependant of Govt for your personal protection is the ultimate dependance & controll. One thing overlooked here is the Courts have ruled a number of times that the Police are for protection of "the masses" not any one individual. You are resonsible for your own protection, yet many jurisdictions refuse to allow a person a means of defence.
Govt has had a limited role, free enterprise & individual achievement is what made America great, not the Nanny State all powerfull govt the Libs are trying to create. The so called Health Care reform is a massive increase in Govt power & will increase govt dependence, a prime goal of Democrats who will use it as vote buying. If you vote for the evil Reps, they'll cut off your health care, just like Dems scare Senior Citizens by saying the evil Reps are going to let them starve by ending Social Security. Tom Daishel, Obama's 1st choice for Health & Human Services Secretary said in his book that costs would have to be cut by reducing service & rationing, targeting senior cititizen was in his plan.
 
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