Have Critics of the CV-22 Osprey Been Vindicated?

Interesting yes. Factual and unbiased no. The piece quotes "critics" but is actually the critic. The CV-22B (MV-22B) was always going to have to overcome a 'baptism of fire' - unfortunately with a loss of life. The aircraft surely has not performed well maintenance wise, in theater, but has fulfilled all missions. Vortex Ring Rate does indeed expose the aircraft to ground fire, but this has been minimized by tactical procedure and LZ fire suppression. i'll wait for the investigation findings before making up my mind.
 
I think it is more of a case of the supporters have been shown to have had the correct view on the project.

It is true that VP Dick Cheney almost had the V-22 canceled but, while the V-22 was in the process of dieing, there was a Japanese company that wanted to buy the project from Boeing. Congress, reconsidered its position for if the Japanese figured out whatever problems the V-22 still had, made the aircraft work as specified, they would have access to lots of new technology including many new materials! Congress decided it was in the national interest to complete this program. As "Clockwinder" said, the V-22 will always have to overcome its reputation unless, it serves for decades and outlives that negative reputation. The same situation the TFX/F-111 had!
The V-22 is not a cure all, like any other aircraft in a combat area, it can and will be shot down from time to time, just like the CH-47's. In places like Afghanistan with many high altitude mountain passes having an aircraft that can carry a usable load to the highest altitudes is a very good feature. Its unique capabilities will be an asset to US forces for many years to come. Yes, one has been shot down in Afghanistan but, the US Army has discovered that the Apache is not as capable of sustaining battle damage as the Army originally thought.

Personally, I would like to see a AEW/AWACS variant of the V-22 designed. It would give almost all the smaller carriers an organic AEW capability. This would provide the E-2s and E-3s a release in having to cover the smaller carriers, amphibious groups and, surface action groups.
 
Personally, I would like to see a AEW/AWACS variant of the V-22 designed. It would give almost all the smaller carriers an organic AEW capability. This would provide the E-2s and E-3s a release in having to cover the smaller carriers, amphibious groups and, surface action groups.
This, and the height argument (helos cannot go as high due to lift/weight ratio probs in thin air) ll count up for the occsional loss.

I hve been witness to one of the worst helo crashes (Chinook) in Germany (Schwetzingen if I recall right, but at least close, could have been Mannheim) some 20 yrs ago, when the beast crashed right on the motorway some km in front of me (I did not follow it through completely, but it seems the sync gear mlfunctioned and the rotors touched and broke), but I have never heard that this would render the two rotors helo concept flawed in principle or useless practically (and do not think so).

Same applies here. The Vortex Ring problems/incidents have been recorded, described, analyzed and taken cre of for 99.99% of the cases, there always will be something overlooked that can (Murphy: WILL!!) go haywire at the worst moment, and actually the culprit is the human at the controls most of the time if you check the statistics.

I find you Americans have a strnge "It Has To Be 100% Safe" Attitude (probably of your litigation society background) that we Europeans simply cannot share: Nothing - for starters - more dangerous than living, so, should we all commit suicide to avoid incoming?

Rattler
 
Last edited:
This, and the height argument (helos cannot go as high due to lift/weight ratio probs in thin air) ll count up for the occsional loss.

I hve been witness to one of the worst helo crashes (Chinook) in Germany (Schwetzingen if I recall right, but at least close, could have been Mannheim) some 20 yrs ago, when the beast crashed right on the motorway some km in front of me (I did not follow it through completely, but it seems the sync gear mlfunctioned and the rotors touched and broke), but I have never heard that this would render the two rotors helo concept flawed in principle or useless practically (and do not think so).

Same applies here. The Vortex Ring problems/incidents have been recorded, described, analyzed and taken cre of for 99.99% of the cases, there always will be something overlooked that can (Murphy: WILL!!) go haywire at the worst moment, and actually the culprit is the human at the controls most of the time if you check the statistics.

I find you Americans have a strnge "It Has To Be 100% Safe" Attitude (probably of your litigation society background) that we Europeans simply cannot share: Nothing - for starters - more dangerous than living, so, should we all commit suicide to avoid incoming?

Rattler


The worst part of this accident, was that the aircraft was filled with civilian skydivers. In all, 46 people were killed. The cause was clogged lubricating jets in the forward transmission, resulting in it`s failure. They were going to an altitude of 13,000 ft., but started having problems at 8,000 ft. They made it to 6oo ft. before the aircraft broke apart.
 
V 22s also seem to have one other flaw as well, as with water landings, I talked to former 46 pilot, one of the airframes replaced in the USMC particularly by the V 22, as well as a Col who was a project manager for the San Antonio Class ( where aircraft weights and such abosolutly matter when dealing with assault ships).

The basic story was a 46 gives allot longer (although not very long) in critical time in a belly down crash into a water body, for crew to exit the foward doors and the rear hatch, witch can be partially closed to help stay of the rate of flooding.

V 22 for instance, does not have suffiecent doors in the front to allow crew out that direciton, and the cabin will flood very rapidly, the aircaft is also prone to rollovers in water as it is so top heavy, so essentially pieced together, anyone who cares to slam some facts and stats on this in a reply to this post, please do for emphasis.

All in all a combat loaded cabin of Marines going down in the sink, will most likely go down with all hands....
 
Last edited:
if it does, add MB´s for all. THis might be design fault, but a secondary if at all:

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/

USAF Ejections (5,446 Total)

1949-30 Sep 02

Fatals 959 17.7%
Survived 4,487 82.3%

Class A Ejection Statistics (01 Oct 01 - 30 Sep 02)

Number/Aircraft Survived Fatal Survived Fatal

8/F-16 6 0 0 2
3/A-10 0 1 0 1
1/B-1B 4 0 0 0
4/F-15 1 1 4 0
1/F-22 0 0 1 0
1/T-37 0 0 0 2
1/U-2 0 0 1 0

Aces II Ejection Rates (08 Aug 78 - 03 Sep 02)

Total Ejection 391

Survived Fatal
Aircraft Number Rate Number Rate

A-10 40 83% 8 17%
F-15 58 91% 6 9%
F-16 237 92% 20 8%
B-1B 19 95% 1 5%
F-117 2 100% 0 0%
Totals 356 91% 35 9%

A total of 12k+ lives saved world wide til today (MB alone counts for 7k+, NOTE that just in the last 8 years we had the same number of ejections s in the 53 !! years before, 5k+), today stats show 91% survival rate.

This would take care of the 6 widely recognized problems with the Osprey:


  • 1. The V-22’s lack of an autorotation capability, or even a demonstrated all engine inoperative safe landing capability, remains cause for concern. V-22 fails to meet the ORD threshold requirement for a survivable emergency landing with all engines inoperative from a large portion of its operating envelope.
  • 2- OV-22 flight characteristics in VRS (vortex ring state) are problematic for roll control and the aircraft is susceptible to un-commanded rolling as a result of saturation in the roll channel of the flight control system when the aircraft is operated into VRS. This aircraft response to VRS phenomenon is drastically different than that of any conventional helicopter.
  • 3. The V-22 is prone to roll PIO (pilot-induced oscillation) in helicopter mode during high gain pilot tasks such as shipboard operations, precision hover in confined areas, or precision hover/landing in obscured visibility.
  • 4. The V-22’s high vibratory loads, coupled with a very flexible structural design and complex hydraulic system, is problematic for hydraulic, electrical, and mechanical systems and is likely to lead to high failure rates for these systems. Many such failures have safety implications.
  • 5. The V-22’s susceptibility to wake or tip vortices from other aircraft is problematic for roll control and can result in un-commanded rolling of the aircraft. At low altitude, this could lead to a loss of an aircraft.
  • 6. The V-22’s high downwash velocity field has the potential to produce significant detrimental effects on hovering operations in desert environments or over water.

As I said, those have been recognized, analyzed and trained for since 5 yrs:

From g2mil.com (and I accept this mostly as gospel, sounds right from all I remember as ex aviator, highlighting by me):

[FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times]In September 2004, a V-22 pilot attempted to reassure aviators that VRS was no longer an issue with an article in Naval Proceedings magazine. He didn't claim the problem has been solved, but that it is better understood. The V-22 test program had conducted several VRS tests at high altitude.

He noted:
[/FONT] [FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times]"During our testing, we experienced 12 roll-off events, 8 to the right and 4 to the left. The direction of roll off was not predictable from the cockpit. In fact, the cockpit characteristics approaching VRS were not as well defined as in single-rotor helicopters. We noticed a slight increase in vibration, rotor noise, and flight control loosening that would not in every instance foretell of an impending roll off. Each roll off, however, was characterized by a sudden sharp reduction of lift on one of the two proprotors, resulting in an uncommanded roll in that direction. We also noted that roll offs required nearly steady-state conditions to trigger them. Any dynamic maneuvering tended to delay or prevent a roll off from occurring. On many occasions, we entered the VRS boundary during dynamic maneuvers and then exited the boundary without encountering a roll off."[/FONT]
[FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times]
Warning systems have been designed to help pilots stay out of VRS, but pilots may ignore such devices in combat. Although pilots testing VRS easily regained control, they had plenty of altitude and focused exclusively on VRS. However, pilots flying operational missions will have a dozen other things on their mind and may not respond to VRS warnings for several seconds. And there will be no VRS warning from ground effect imbalances, high winds or wake and wing tip vortices from nearby aircraft.

As a simple example, if you are driving a test car to see how it handles during a tire blow out while rounding a corner, you will be prepared to handle that emergency and can "prove" it is not a problem. Yet if you are driving in the rain while looking at a map as children play in the backseat and a tire unexpectedly blows out while rounding a corner, you may lose control.
[/FONT]

The latter qualifies as pilot error, either relieve him from the workload of map reading/kids control, or do not complain. Again, this is not a design failure, it is an inherent consequence of the concept, maybe (but I doubt it) badly addressed by 2ndary features.

Rattler
 
The worst part of this accident, was that the aircraft was filled with civilian skydivers. In all, 46 people were killed. -snip-

Now, that you describe it, that was the one indeed, and it was for a Mannheim anniversry (2 Chinooks in the air), and not 20, but 30+ yrs ago (how memory can fail you, time flies!).

I recall vividly that we all aviation geeks were wondering for days (and IMHO the mystery has never been solved) why the heck those guys did not take to get out when it ws still possible (they were not bound to follow orders, they were civvies alright). One of the real tragedies in the Greek sense: There you have guys prepared to jump off perfectly allright a/cs all the time finding themselves in in a situation where normally nobody has chance to escape; they have the material, are trained for it, and just dont...

Dont want to hijack the thread, but as this was one of the only 2 air disasters I had a chance to at least partially witness, here some pix (mods feel free to seperate this into two threads):

First pic shows ome of the special irony of this weird and probably worst accident ever in helo history: The transparent at the side of the Beetle advises for the "Luftfahrttage Mannheim" = Air Festival Mannheim), I was only there because we wanted to go and see it - I lived and worked in Heidelberg at those times, just 20km away), and it was a nice weather Saturday if I recall right:

74-22292_autobahn_photo_a.jpg


74-22292_one_half_second_before_impact.jpg


74-22292_c.jpg


Rattler
 
Back
Top