Hating America key to Nobel Prize

Gladius

I think you just illustrated Peter Pan's point, Pinter statement is very critical, no doubt. But even extreme criticism doesnt mean hatred. For example, I (and millions of others) am critical of the Catholic Church for its refusal to moderate its hard line social positions, but that doesnt mean that I hate the Catholic church.
 
mmarsh,

I understand there is a difference between hate and critism. In alot of cases it is, yes indeed it is only critism (as per the example you gave). I actaully agree that you can criticize without hating, and alot of people are critical of the US but don't actually hate it.

But in a lot of cases they go far beyond just criticism or even extreme criticism, the laguage Pinter used was pretty hateful. I don't think this is one of those cases where this is criticism and not hate for the US.

Some of these guys who make statements like these are Marxist and they do have a genuine hate for the US. They see the US as an evil that is stopping the spread of Marxism, Pinter is one of them. Here is some of the stuff he did:



In the following decades, as the quality of his literary work depreciated, Pinter’s enthusiasm for leftist dictatorships continued undiminished. The late seventies and early eighties saw him take up the cause of Central America’s Communist Sandinistas. In
1979, the playwright traveled to Nicaragua, meeting with President Daniel Ortega on several occasions and acting as a propaganda tool for that regime.

To this day, Pinter has resisted coming to grips with the totalitarian nature of the Sandinista regime and the numerous atrocities it carried out. Still parroting Marxist spin doctors, Pinter contends that the Sandinistas were “a democratically elected government which originally led a popular revolution to overthrow a dictatorship based on slavery.”

Much of Pinter’s political energy over the years has been expended on behalf of Marxist Cuba. An unswerving believer in the Cuban revolution, Pinter has praised its “respect for human dignity,” claiming, “ts achievements are remarkable.” Firmly in the Castro camp, Pinter is also an active member of the Cuba Solidarity Campaign, a radical organization committed to portraying Cuba, against all evidence, as a democratic country.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19883

From those things that he did, there is no doubt how much he loves Marxism, and people who love Marxism see the US as the enemy. Pinter is full of venomous and hate towards the US. Big difference from that and just criticism.







 
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mmarsh,

What percentage of posts on this forum would you estimate as being anti-American? You can just guess, it's not an accurate poll, just trying to make a point. Now, how many Americans have directly attacked another Country's leadership? Do you think there is a degree of criticism of America that is far greater than any other Country on this board? That subject is the opening and closing of almost every post by quite a few members on the forum.

Can you see why we become so defensive when we are constantly flamed for no reason at all? One thing I read most of all is that the USA acts on it's own in too many instances in World affairs. Well, nothing has changed since we became a Nation. We're not part of the European Union so asking permission for everything we do, like defending our people, is not necessary. Even if we travelled the entire known World and asked permission to defend our sovereign rights, we would either be ignored or told that we don't have the right to take down an enemy whose only goal is the destruction of America.

I want to understand the criticism and I don't want to hear President Bush's name because the rhetoric here surpasses our leadership. Is it because we're the sole superpower now? "I don't have anything against the American people, it's just the Bush camp that I can't stand." There's another little gem that's used often. We get pretty tired of that too because of the implied criticism of America as a Nation. Let me know which parts of this you agree with and which parts you disagree with. I really would appreciate it.

By the way, this is not a trick question to lead you into anything such as "when did you stop beating your Wife?"
 
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Did y'all know that Teddy Roosevelt won the Nobel prize for to peace between Japan and Russia. President Teddy Roosevelt is an American.
 
Peter Pan said:
If hating the US was the key to winning the Nobel Prize, then one wonders how come so many Americans have won the Prize and why Saddam Hussein was missed out!

The Americans must rid themselves of this paranoia that the whole world hates them. Also, they must understand that like they have little time for the rest of the world's opinion, the world also reserves the same right.

Disagreeing with the USA, does not necessarily mean that one hates the US!

Indeed well said but I suspect the point will be over looked.
 
Could be he wasn't intending to insult you bruv. There is only one smiley that says "I agree with the last post" and that is it... so either he meant to say you're stupid OR he was just agreeing. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt in the interests of decorum until he says otherwise as he is just a hs kid. ;)
 
Can you see why we become so defensive when we are constantly flamed for no reason at all? One thing I read most of all is that the USA acts on it's own in too many instances in World affairs. Well, nothing has changed since we became a Nation. We're not part of the European Union so asking permission for everything we do, like defending our people, is not necessary.

In this quote lays, IMO, the clue of the troubles, at least my troubles. In Holland we have a proverb which says: high trees catch a lot of wind. Since America is the hegemon most of her actions affect people all over the world. To say: "but we do only our things", afflict millions of lives all round and therefor people do have an opinion about America's actions.

Secondly, since part one is not taken into account you see that others think America is arrogant. You state that you don't have to ask the EU for everything you do. Strictly, you're right. But if you know that your actions will influence 450 million Europeans, asking is sometimes not such a bad idea. As I said in more then one post, often, especially on hot issues, we feel that the US doesn't take us serious.

What you see now is that many politicians score in their homecountries by rising up to this. People say: be a man and stand up to them!! Don't be a lacky of the States.
Since Bush does this way more then Clinton did, it is a logical consequence that you often hear bad things about his legislation. So I hope this clears things up a bit about the motives we have to be "anti- American".
 
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Ted said:
In this quote lays, IMO, the clue of the troubles, at least my troubles. In Holland we have a proverb which says: high trees catch a lot of wind. Since America is the hegemon most of her actions affect people all over the world. To say: "but we do only our things", afflict millions of lives all round and therefor people do have an opinion about America's actions.
Makes sense that the big kid on the block can affect a lot of other kids but if the big kid isn't a bully, then there should be no problems. I don't see the USA as a bully but I do see how our policy of protection of American citizens here and abroad can be perceived as such.

Secondly, since part one is not taken into account you see that others think America is arrogant. You state that you don't have to ask the EU for everything you do. Strictly, you're right. But if you know that your actions will influence 450 million Europeans, asking is sometimes not such a bad idea. As I said in more then one post, often, especially on hot issues, we feel that the US doesn't take us serious.
Here, I disagree about not asking others before undertaking an operation that may affect European Countries. There are many Countries represented in the effort against terrorism. We're not doing this thing without the aid those Countries contribute and we will never forget their sacrifices. I think they are doing their part because they see it as the right thing, not something the US pushed them into.

What you see now is that many politicians score in their homecountries by rising up to this. People say: be a man and stand up to them!! Don't be a lacky of the States.
I covered this above but if that is the only way a country can remain stablized within, then by all means, follow the people's wishes. But therein lies the proverbial double edge blade. The United States is not the country to heap scorn on an ally simply because they can't or won't commit to a fight. In later history, those who chose to help even in a non combat role can write this in their history books about helping make a difference in the World.

Since Bush does this way more then Clinton did, it is a logical consequence that you often hear bad things about his legislation. So I hope this clears things up a bit about the motives we have to be "anti- American".
First, America didn't have suicide bombers ram planes into the WTC. If striking back is bad, then I guess we will always be the bad guys to some.
And, maybe I missed something somewhere but no, I don't see any honest motive to be "anti-American." If you are happy with yourself, it's not my place to say you're wrong and I don't.
 
Once again I like your post Missileer, luckily I do have a few minor remarks:
I think they are doing their part because they see it as the right thing, not something the US pushed them into.

I am talking more about the countries where a majority vote was against intervention and where Powell & Rise paid a visit. More then once the government swayed and went of to war. The people in the street connect the neglect of their wish to the duo, thus the US. Maybe not very logical but who ever said that people were logical.
I don't see any honest motive to be "anti-American." If you are happy with yourself, it's not my place to say you're wrong and I don't.

I reckon that most emotions are anti-American, because it is so easy to be anti. It is very fashionable to be against the top dog. You (in certain groups) look good because you proclaim to be against the US thus pro-independence. And the best thing is, you know they will win. So what do you have to lose? You look good in your peer group and nothing really changes....
Ask a large group that they could choose between the States and Iran as a governmental system. You and I both know what the answer will be.
So I reckon it just goes skin-deep. So once again: illogical but understandable
 
The Anti-American reaction may or may not be logical, but it reminds me of something that I believe really and truly needs to sweep the globe. Thinking. Also known as using one's own brain. If there weren't kindergarten dropouts, the KKK would be fresh out of recruits. If the Mid-Eastern countries could educate all the masses, we'd probably see a dramatic drop in fundamentalists waging their "noble" wars of murdering innocents, women and children. And if the power of thinking prevailed, then the majority of Anti-USA rhetoric would stop. Parrots don't need to think, and those who take and make their opinions from what is fashionable are exactly that. Parrots. No thinking required.

Forward the crusade to force the unwilling world to use its frickin collective brains!! Down with stupidity!!
 
I guess I have to agree with Ted on the idea that a lot of anti rhetoric becomes fashionable after a while in various groups. So there are intelligent people totally against war of any sort and for any reason. Then there are people who are followers of just about any cause as long as they gain acceptance by the first group because of never having been accepted by such people in real life.

But, the third group, the catalyst for mixing the groups, is the odd world of mass media who try to, and do ,steer all opinions in whichever direction they think is the high ground. They take constant opinion polls and if the results aren't as they like, they simply don't publish those results and look to the next pollster until they find the "antis." Such is life, such as it is.
 
I think this is very true. Alot of anti-US sentiment is there because it is the fashionable thing to do. Alot of people do it because it the guise of intellectualism which to me is pretty ironic.
 
godofthunder9010 said:
The Anti-American reaction may or may not be logical, but it reminds me of something that I believe really and truly needs to sweep the globe. Thinking. Also known as using one's own brain. If there weren't kindergarten dropouts, the KKK would be fresh out of recruits. If the Mid-Eastern countries could educate all the masses, we'd probably see a dramatic drop in fundamentalists waging their "noble" wars of murdering innocents, women and children. And if the power of thinking prevailed, then the majority of Anti-USA rhetoric would stop. Parrots don't need to think, and those who take and make their opinions from what is fashionable are exactly that. Parrots. No thinking required.

Forward the crusade to force the unwilling world to use its frickin collective brains!! Down with stupidity!!

This I agree with, education is the key to defeating fundamentalism worldwide.

As for the rest of the posts in this thread claiming that "anti-americanism" only exists because it is "fashionable" perhaps need to also look at the fact that many of the nations that americans like to consider as "anti-american" namely Europe are also some of the most educated nations on earth they have access to information at will and therefore are perhaps making up their own minds on what they like and dislike.

However most importantly you should first look a few pages back to this post:
The Americans must rid themselves of this paranoia that the whole world hates them. Also, they must understand that like they have little time for the rest of the world's opinion, the world also reserves the same right.

Disagreeing with the USA, does not necessarily mean that one hates the US!

as there was never a truer word posted.
 
MontyB said:
This I agree with, education is the key to defeating fundamentalism worldwide.

As for the rest of the posts in this thread claiming that "anti-americanism" only exists because it is "fashionable" perhaps need to also look at the fact that many of the nations that americans like to consider as "anti-american" namely Europe are also some of the most educated nations on earth they have access to information at will and therefore are perhaps making up their own minds on what they like and dislike.

However most importantly you should first look a few pages back to this post:


as there was never a truer word posted.

Missileer said:
But, the third group, the catalyst for mixing the groups, is the odd world of mass media who try to, and do ,steer all opinions in whichever direction they think is the high ground. They take constant opinion polls and if the results aren't as they like, they simply don't publish those results and look to the next pollster until they find the "antis." Such is life, such as it is.

Do you give this part of my post any merit at all? Are you totally sure that there is no bias against the US?
 
Missileer said:
Do you give this part of my post any merit at all? Are you totally sure that there is no bias against the US?

I am not sure how to answer this, I spend time in several countries (certainly not a huge number) throughout the year and I would have to be honest in saying that outside the immediate time around major events (9/11, events in Iraq etc.) the media doesnt focus on the US at all much like the US media world media is in general inward looking and prefers to pick on its own national faillings rather than concentrating on world events.

Basically I dont think people worldwide focus as much attention on the US as you think they do, news and newspapers here for example can go weeks without ever mentioning anything more about the US than the exchange rate. Hell not even Iraq makes the news these days.
 
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MontyB said:
Peter Pan said:
The Americans must rid themselves of this paranoia that the whole world hates them. Also, they must understand that like they have little time for the rest of the world's opinion, the world also reserves the same right.

Disagreeing with the USA, does not necessarily mean that one hates the US!
as there was never a truer word posted.

But never one more totaly wrong in this case.


I already posted about a few pages back about Pinter being a Marxist. These people in general see the US as an imperialist evil holding back the spread of Marxism.

So in this case of this guy Pinter winning the Nobel Prize, he mostly does in fact hate the US.
 
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MontyB said:
I am not sure how to answer this, I spend time in several countries (certainly not a huge number) throughout the year and I would have to be honest in saying that outside the immediate time around major events (9/11, events in Iraq etc.) the media doesnt focus on the US at all much like the US media world media is in general inward looking and prefers to pick on its own national faillings rather than concentrating on world events.

Basically I dont think people worldwide focus as much attention on the US as you think they do, news and newspapers here for example can go weeks without ever mentioning anything more about the US than the exchange rate. Hell not even Iraq makes the news these days.

So this perception is only prevelant on this forum, or is it just my being overly sensitive?

Ted said:
Since America is the hegemon most of her actions affect people all over the world. To say: "but we do only our things", afflict millions of lives all round and therefor people do have an opinion about America's actions.

Secondly, since part one is not taken into account you see that others think America is arrogant. You state that you don't have to ask the EU for everything you do. Strictly, you're right. But if you know that your actions will influence 450 million Europeans, asking is sometimes not such a bad idea. As I said in more then one post, often, especially on hot issues, we feel that the US doesn't take us serious.

What you see now is that many politicians score in their homecountries by rising up to this. People say: be a man and stand up to them!! Don't be a lacky of the States.
Since Bush does this way more then Clinton did, it is a logical consequence that you often hear bad things about his legislation. So I hope this clears things up a bit about the motives we have to be "anti- American".
 
Missileer said:
So this perception is only prevelant on this forum, or is it just my being overly sensitive?

I never said that, every where you go in the world there is a certain amount of xenophobia and I can only speak for those people I know but we bring the wife’s family out here frequently and we travel the world a fair bit and at no stage have we ever noticed an overt "anti-American" sentiment sure she gets a lot of ribbing over events in the US but mainly it is targeted at GWB (I seriously think most of the world is shocked that the US could elect someone like that I will leave this bit vague but I am sure you know which attributes most think he is deficient in) I have never noticed an occasion when she has been attacked just for being American.

I do tend to think that boards such as this polarise people into a "for and against" mode solely because many people refuse to see anyone elses point of view lets face it I would decribe these boards as predominantly extreme right in its views which has the tendancy to push/catagorise even moderate right posters such as myself into the liberal pile but then I go to boards that are what I would consider extreme left and end up pushed into the right wing groupings so over all it evens itself out.

As far as Ted's comments go I dont disagree with those either much of the worlds population are patriotic toward their own nation and to have someone shaking up your security or affecting your economy in negative ways is unwelcome so yes people are happy when our politicians stand up and say no (Just look at what it did for the New Zealand leaders when we enacted our anti-nuclear policy) after all we are meant to be friends and true friends dont threaten each other nothing solidifies a nation faster than being threatened by another.

On the whole I think all of what you see as anti-american is not it is more "anti american administration" and "foreign policy" and I would bet dollars to donuts that the only thing most focus their dislike on is GWB.
 
I'm not overly fond of many of our allies' responses to the US foreign policies but I know administrations change but the ill feelings caused by them can remain and smolder until it becomes an International separatism. I hope things don't get that far out of hand.
 
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