I hate guns...

We don't have guns on New Zealand campuses either and I am prepared to bet the same goes for a sizable proportion of Australia and Europe, our criminals have access to guns as do the rest of the worlds criminals why do we not have as many shootings per capita?

I think it fair to say that per capita we have as many criminals and crazies as you.

Your argument does not stack up given empirical data from the rest of the world because if your argument held true then it would be replicated around the world on a proportional basis.
Then please, give me a source on that "crazies and criminals" claim.
 
I think the statement below confirms what I said. That Europeans can not comprehend the difference in our attitude. We do not believe the government will always do what is best for us. You believe "your government, competent or not, will do what is best".

Let's see, you won't vouch for the competency of your government, which is in civilian hands. Sounds like you also believe that your citizens are to stupid to elect a trustworthy government. You do believe the government should be in civilian control.
I think you are playing with semantics, the competency of government is a personal opinion and determined by election, what we are discussing here is the institution of government who's existence depends on the stability of the nation (education, economy and social makeup).

I suspect much of the western world believe that while their governments may make choices they do not personally support these governments are not about to go rogue and act deliberately to the detriment of the majority, it would also appear that a large element of the USA does not believe that their nation has achieved this level of stability.

This coming from someone who's Imperialist government was instrumentally involved with starting two world wars. Talking about a country that helped you keep your sovereignty. And New Zealand was part of that government.
I think you are confused, New Zealand became a self governing dominion in 1907 but if you care to name any World Wars New Zealand started I would be more than interested to see some information on it, however New Zealand and Australia have a long history of supporting their friends and it is clear that Britain needed our help during two wars started by others.

Then please, give me a source on that "crazies and criminals" claim.

I think if you look at the wording you will discover that it is an opinion and therefore does not have a source.
However if you trundle your way to Nationmaster.com you will see that New Zealand has more crime per capita but only 1/8th the number of firearms related murders per capita and only a quarter the number of murders per capita compared to the USA.
 
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May I make the point that what suits the US citizens dose not always suits New Zealand or any other country? The Americans put their trust in their constitution. A lot of them believe that touching this document and changing it is dangerous. I can easily see why. Firearms are a part of American colture. Firearms are not in them selves bad, dangerous or any sort of thing. It really dose depend on how and who handles them. Since the USA took its independence from the UK, they always had a right to own firearms. When you come to people and say- this isent your right anymore, that is taking a swing at what they(and I) think is a natural right.

I think people who did not grow up with firearms as part of their life are affraid of them. I have been around firearms since I could walk, and it always looked very natural to me that people re allowed to have them. Now my country has taken that right away from me and Im mad. Very mad. Dose that make any sens?
 
I think people who did not grow up with firearms as part of their life are affraid of them. I have been around firearms since I could walk, and it always looked very natural to me that people re allowed to have them. Now my country has taken that right away from me and Im mad. Very mad. Dose that make any sens?

I think the same thing holds true in New Zealand and Australia though, we grow up with firearms from the very early ages kids 3-4 years old) are out hunting rabbits, opossums etc. with parents by the teenage years we are pig, goat and deer hunting.

So once again I will ask why the difference?

Why do I see a firearm as a tool and entertainment and even though I own in the area of 60 firearms I have no desire nor do I feel the need to carry one on the streets even while living in the USA I never felt the need to carry a weapon yet the likes of 5.56 and Henderson seem to believe that stepping out the door without 10 of them is suicidal.

The reality is simple there are no tricks and no clever slogans needed, the reason the USA has such a high rate of firearm related deaths is that they have a huge number of firearms on the streets and little to no control over who has them and yet they seem fixated by the notion that the cure to this is to put more on the streets.

Would anyone seriously suggest that the key to solving drunk driving is to make alcohol easier to get or that you can cut the road toll by making cars cheaper?
 
and perhaps because of a larger population/free-er news than any other country? Russia is similarly large but tend to keep things hush. because we have alliance with america, their news is our news, so we just hear about more of them. whereas, in Russia, we would only hear about the REALLY bad ones.

oh bollocks. this is in response the last post on page 5 i think, i didn't notice the extra pages ¬`¬
 
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I think you are playing with semantics, the competency of government is a personal opinion and determined by election, what we are discussing here is the institution of government who's existence depends on the stability of the nation (education, economy and social makeup).

I did nothing of the sort. I listed your statements and commented on them. Those were your personal opinions.

I suspect much of the western world believe that while their governments may make choices they do not personally support these governments are not about to go rogue and act deliberately to the detriment of the majority, it would also appear that a large element of the USA does not believe that their nation has achieved this level of stability.

What?

I think you are confused, New Zealand became a self governing dominion in 1907 but if you care to name any World Wars New Zealand started I would be more than interested to see some information on it, however New Zealand and Australia have a long history of supporting their friends and it is clear that Britain needed our help during two wars started by others.

The following is a link to the official New Zealand web site. People can browse and determine for themselves if New Zealand is part of the British Empire. The executive branch of New Zealand government is the Queen represented by the Governor-General :

http://newzealand.govt.nz/

While New Zealander's may enjoy an almost autonomous government, you are so British you still live on Islands.

"This coming from someone who's Imperialist government was instrumentally involved with starting two world wars. Talking about a country that helped you keep your sovereignty. And New Zealand was part of that government." Chukpike

New Zealand fully supported their Sovereign nation during both wars. I never claimed New Zealand started the wars.

I think the same thing holds true in New Zealand and Australia though, we grow up with firearms from the very early ages kids 3-4 years old) are out hunting rabbits, opossums etc. with parents by the teenage years we are pig, goat and deer hunting.

"we grow up with firearms from the very early ages kids 3-4 years old."
And you think we are careless with guns.
 
The following is a link to the official New Zealand web site. People can browse and determine for themselves if New Zealand is part of the British Empire. The executive branch of New Zealand government is the Queen represented by the Governor-General :

http://newzealand.govt.nz/

While New Zealander's may enjoy an almost autonomous government, you are so British you still live on Islands.

"This coming from someone who's Imperialist government was instrumentally involved with starting two world wars. Talking about a country that helped you keep your sovereignty. And New Zealand was part of that government." Chukpike

New Zealand fully supported their Sovereign nation during both wars. I never claimed New Zealand started the wars.


While I am sure this was written for amusement purposes it does have several errors, not the least of which that New Zealand actually declared war on Germany which would be an unusual act for a territory...

1939 New Zealand declares war on Germany

Alongside Britain and Australia, New Zealand was one of the first countries to become involved in the global conflict precipitated by Germany's invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939.
In contrast to its entry into the First World War, New Zealand acted in its own right by formally declaring war on Germany on 3 September (unlike Australia, which held that the King's declaration, as in 1914, automatically extended to all his Dominions).
Officially, New Zealand's declaration of war was simultaneous with Britain's – as it was held to exist from the expiry of the British government's ultimatum to Germany to withdraw from Poland (9.30 p.m. New Zealand standard time, 11 a.m. British summer time). In fact, ministers and senior officials waited on formal advice of the expiry of the ultimatum, and Britain's declaration of war on Germany, before taking any action. It was not until 11.30 p.m. that the acting Prime Minister, Peter Fraser, issued a statement confirming that New Zealand was at war:
This is not an occasion for many words; it is a dark day in the history of the world ... It is with deep regret and sadness that I make this announcement on behalf of the Government, and the people will receive it with similar feelings. That will not, however, affect the determination of both Government and people to play their part.
Maybe you are thinking of Australia?

Still one thing the Commonwealth can be proud of is that in two world wars we joined at the beginning and didnt wait until the result was assured before taking sides.
:)
 
I think the same thing holds true in New Zealand and Australia though, we grow up with firearms from the very early ages kids 3-4 years old) are out hunting rabbits, opossums etc. with parents by the teenage years we are pig, goat and deer hunting.

So once again I will ask why the difference?

Why do I see a firearm as a tool and entertainment and even though I own in the area of 60 firearms I have no desire nor do I feel the need to carry one on the streets even while living in the USA I never felt the need to carry a weapon yet the likes of 5.56 and Henderson seem to believe that stepping out the door without 10 of them is suicidal.

The reality is simple there are no tricks and no clever slogans needed, the reason the USA has such a high rate of firearm related deaths is that they have a huge number of firearms on the streets and little to no control over who has them and yet they seem fixated by the notion that the cure to this is to put more on the streets.

Would anyone seriously suggest that the key to solving drunk driving is to make alcohol easier to get or that you can cut the road toll by making cars cheaper?

Hey... I carry a firearm just like I carry a fire extinguisher... It is better to have and not need then to need and not have.

Just today...

Friday, December 26, 2008

A robber armed with a handgun was shot and killed by his would-be victim.

Early Friday morning, Broward Sheriff’s Office deputies responded to a shooting outside a West Park tri-plex.

When they arrived, they found an unidentified man dead outside 22-year-old Brian Kelley’s apartment.

According to Kelley, he was returning home around 4:30 a.m. and when he approached his apartment, a man came up from behind and put a gun to Kelley’s head, and attempted to rob him.

Kelley pulled out his own handgun and fired at the suspect, killing him.

BSO homicide detectives questioned Kelley, who is cooperating with the investigation.

He is not in custody.

Several witnesses after the incident were also interviewed by detectives.

At this time, BSO homicide detectives believe Kelley acted in self-defense, but will present their case to the State Attorney’s Office for review.


610 WIOD News
I don't carry because I think people are out to get or or because of some macho thing... I carry because I am responsible. I carry because I know that evil can strike anytime anywhere. I carry because it is my right to do so. I carry because I care about my life that much and that much more about my loved ones' lives.

I don't carry because I look for trouble. I carry because trouble might find me.

If you feel that you can rely on another to keep you safe then by all means. I know that as a police officer I cannot be everywhere at once. Even in the New York City where there are cops at every street corner... Crime, muggings, drugs, and murder still occur.

My safety and the safety of my loved ones is my number one priority. I will do anything and everything for them and myself. You aren't in a profession in which you put your life on the line daily. You don't make enemies on the street... You don't deal with the scum and villainy of society daily as I do. You have not seen the dark side of society... how underneath the nicely polished and clean surfaces lies a dark and nasty world.... I live in one of the nicest neighborhoods and yet crime still occur. I have opened my eyes and realize that evil can be anywhere and everywhere... 9/11 was a prime example of that... daily muggings are a prime example of that. School shootings are a prime example of that.... Your safety lies on your shoulders, not mine or anyone elses.

If you feel that you cannot be that responsible with a firearm then don't carry one. I feel that I can be that responsible and so do millions of my fellow citizens. Which is why we carry....
 
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While I like you attempt at deflecting the argument into the realm of "me not wanting to be responsible for my own safety" I would suggest that the fact that I spend a lot of time in different countries and are determined to see every one of them would make more more acutely aware of my personal safety than many others, I would have to say that situational awareness and fore thought has done more to keep me alive and healthy than any firearm.

I think I find your closing statement the most amusing (well actually it was the thought that you believe being armed was somehow going to prevent 9/11) because for all your "millions of responsible firearms carriers" you have the highest level of:
- Gun related murders.
- Gun related suicides.
- Firearms related crime
anywhere in the "stable" world and to top it off you have stats that rival countries at war and yet you tell me I am wrong because I can't carry a weapon in a country that has one of the lowest rates of:
- Gun related murders.
- Gun related suicides.
- Firearms related crime
in the world I wonder if there is a correlation?


Oh and for the record my country seems to think that I am responsible enough to collect some of more lethal weapons available so I am not sure that argument stacks up either.
 
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How often has this topic been brought up? Some people are for guns being more widespread, some are not. Quite honestly, it's a little different there in New Zealand where folks can't run anywhere. In America, there is too much country to attempt to control the gun traffic... There is NO WAY the government could keep tabs on guns in the United States.

Quite honestly, you cannot count suicides as a statistic, because if a person is going to commit suicide, they normally have pretty strong resolve about doing it. They will find a way to do it if they really want to.

I'm going to close with a repeat of what Luis said... I'd rather have one, and not need it, than to find myself without it and need it.


I'm only 18, and can't carry a pistol yet, but I do keep a knife with me at almost all times. Mom always asks me "What's the point of that thing?" and I always tell her "I keep it with me, because I'd rather have it and never use it; than to not carry it, and find myself in the situation where I could save another's life or my own life by having it."
 
I think Henderson's put it very well.
Actually I've considered carrying around a knife as well because some of the youth gangs have been getting bigger and ballsier lately. But apparently that'll make me "suspicious" as if I was the one who forced them to pick a fight with me.
 
I agree with SHERMAN on this, if you are going to bring a weapon for self-defense better get a handgun.
 
I can't. Guns are illegal. But a knife could be a deterrent if only for show. If something really happened I'd probably just throw the knife aside since I am better off using my own hands.
 
Well, I admit I don't know what the laws are in your country but I'll hazard a guess and say that combat Knifes are illegal to civilians as well, at least the ones you would need to best defend yourself.

I don't like knifes personally, either carrying them or having them pointed in my direction. I would suggest a collapsible baton if its legal, that's what I would carry (if I could).
 
Knives are good weapons if you know what you're doing with them.... I run off the 21 foot rule. If you're within 21 feet or shorter of me... I'm screwed... I can't draw and break leather that fast. Standard police training and mindset... 21 feet or closer for hand to hand or knife is danger close.
 
I agree with SHERMAN on this, if you are going to bring a weapon for self-defense better get a handgun.


Like I said... I'm only 18. I can't carry one legally yet. Like redneck said, it's mainly a deterrent, but if the need ever came, I DO know how to use it... I'm no ninja, but I know basic self-defense techniques.
 
mmarsh, I probably won't need a combat knife to deter a bunch of bored / pissed off youths. Just pulling out a knife means they're going to have to work for it. They'll mostly move on.
 
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