I hate guns...

[SHERMAN]

I for one do not believe that the retailer is the right person to be carrying out these checks.

Not the retailer. you get a permit from the gov. im just saying that the only limits to permits should be:
A) your crazy
B)your a criminal

 

[MontyB]

Not the retailer. you get a permit from the gov. im just saying that the only limits to permits should be:
A) your crazy
B)your a criminal

Hey I have no issues with that but I would be surprised if 5.56 doesn't.

 

[A Can of Man]

I won't even go into the fear subject anymore.

But I don't see the issue with having to pass a background check, a psychological test and maybe even a one day course before being given a license. I don't see why it's so hard and heck, maybe you should require all citizens to take the test. Doesn't mean they have to buy a gun, but that sure as heck solves the problem with the whole "then the government will know who has the guns" argument. Doesn't help if just about everyone with more than a single digit number of brain cells and a clean record has one.

Might even just include it in a "background and psychological exam" which all citizens must take at the age of 18 as a part of the final phase of their high school to see if they can be eligible to buy a gun or go on to earn a driver's permit.

 

[MontyB]

I won't even go into the fear subject anymore.

Well I will get into the fear thing.
When I let someone into a lane in front of me, hold a door open, say "thank you" to a waiter or shop keeper I am not doing it because they might be armed I do it because that is what I was raised to do.

It is with this in mind that I say with confidence that it is fear not politeness that applies when people try and attribute it to an armed society, if you want polite people teach them manners don't arm them.

As for the rest I agree but I am going to bet large sums of money that that the pro-gun lobby wont.

 

[BritinBritain]

Now that is a weapon I would give anyone's left testicle to have (except my own, I am attached to them).

I also have a Mauser P08, built in 1972 using the original Swiss Tooling complete with grip safety as per the Swiss built P08. I bought it new in the box with all the tools, instruction manual and test target. It has the American Eagle above the chamber and stamped on the side "Interarms" It has fired no more then 50 rounds from new.

A few months ago I had an other interesting gun in my hands. A chap in his late 80's brought an Holland and Holland Paradox into the shop. The owner was an ex British Colonel serving in the Indian Army. His father (also and ex Indian Army senior officer) bought the gun second hand in 1912. It had frequently been used on tiger hunts throughout Indian many times in the 1920's and 1930's. During one such hunt an elephant stood on the butt and broke it. A replacement was made by a gunsmith locally in India to the same standard as Holland and Holland. I cradled the gun in my hands, the fit and finish was perfect, it came up beautifully. I opened the barrels and checked for any play, there was none, I checked the bores and both were absolutely pristine, when I closed the gun there was a satisfying “CLUNK” and locked up solid.

The chap was sending the gun to his nephew living in England, I asked him if his nephew knew what he was really getting. He looked at me and said, “Probably not.”

Its a matter of record that where restrictive firearm laws are in place, crime skyrockets. Thats fact. Its also a matter of record, where firearms are freely available with few restrictions, crime drops. Thats also fact.

Since the concealed carry laws were enacted in certain states throughout the US crime and spiralled downwards. Rape was once a huge problem in Florida, since the concealed carry laws, crimes such as rape, and mugging have dropped considerably.

Criminals are scared to death of armed citizens, neither are criminals total idiots. Who in their right mind would attempt to rape or mug someone, if there's a chance they are going to get the crap shot out of them? To quote Professor John Lott, “More Guns = Less Crime.”

I remember an incident in Israel where terrorists attempted to murder innocent people, Israelis fought back and fought back hard with their own carry guns. When the smoke cleared, one of the surviving terrorists bleated, “I didn't know people in Israel were armed.” Sherman can probably tell you more about that incident.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Hey I have no issues with that but I would be surprised if 5.56 doesn't.

Government shouldn't have the right to "permit" someone to own firearms. In Florida we have a background check system. Everytime you purchase a firearm a criminal/mental background check is performed.

There is no permit, no license, no nothing from the State of Florida that I need to go and purchase a firearm. Once you're 18 you can purchase long guns (Rifle/Shotgun) and sidearms at 21 (Pistol/Revolver). You can purchase as many as you want... no limit on the amount or within how many days. Once again.... no permit needed to own or purchase.

A Permit system is something that is not needed.... simple as that. All a permit does is remove a right and change it into a privilege. Because you are now privileged by the government to have said permit. When it comes to a Constitutional Right.... that doesn't fly with me.

Like I said.... we run background checks. It's the law... there is even a waiting period of 5 days. You skip the waiting check if you have a conceal carry permit. Why? Because you have proved to the state that you can safely handle a firearm and also because a background check was performed when you filed to get a conceal carry permit. But having a conceal carry permit does not skip the background check at time of purchase.

But does this stop criminals form getting arms? No... why? Because criminals break they law. They either steal them or they get them through a straw buyer. Someone hat can legally buy and own said weapon and then give them to said person hat cannot. It happens here, it happens in New York City, and it happens everywhere else in the world. CRIMINALS BREAK LAWS. So once again.... placing restrictions on the law abiding makes no sense. Why restrict only those that will follow the law?

 

[MontyB]

I also have a Mauser P08, built in 1972 using the original Swiss Tooling complete with grip safety as per the Swiss built P08. I bought it new in the box with all the tools, instruction manual and test target. It has the American Eagle above the chamber and stamped on the side "Interarms" It has fired no more then 50 rounds from new.

A few months ago I had an other interesting gun in my hands. A chap in his late 80's brought an Holland and Holland Paradox into the shop. The owner was an ex British Colonel serving in the Indian Army. His father (also and ex Indian Army senior officer) bought the gun second hand in 1912. It had frequently been used on tiger hunts throughout Indian many times in the 1920's and 1930's. During one such hunt an elephant stood on the butt and broke it. A replacement was made by a gunsmith locally in India to the same standard as Holland and Holland. I cradled the gun in my hands, the fit and finish was perfect, it came up beautifully. I opened the barrels and checked for any play, there was none, I checked the bores and both were absolutely pristine, when I closed the gun there was a satisfying “CLUNK” and locked up solid.

The chap was sending the gun to his nephew living in England, I asked him if his nephew knew what he was really getting. He looked at me and said, “Probably not.”

Its a matter of record that where restrictive firearm laws are in place, crime skyrockets. Thats fact. Its also a matter of record, where firearms are freely available with few restrictions, crime drops. Thats also fact.

Since the concealed carry laws were enacted in certain states throughout the US crime and spiralled downwards. Rape was once a huge problem in Florida, since the concealed carry laws, crimes such as rape, and mugging have dropped considerably.

Criminals are scared to death of armed citizens, neither are criminals total idiots. Who in their right mind would attempt to rape or mug someone, if there's a chance they are going to get the crap shot out of them? To quote Professor John Lott, “More Guns = Less Crime.”

I remember an incident in Israel where terrorists attempted to murder innocent people, Israelis fought back and fought back hard with their own carry guns. When the smoke cleared, one of the surviving terrorists bleated, “I didn't know people in Israel were armed.” Sherman can probably tell you more about that incident.

The problem is not with having armed people as much as it is in the controls that are needed to prevent firearms getting into the hands of those who shouldn't have them and the ease of them getting new and replacement weapons.

Believe it or not I (and I suspect almost everyone labeled as "anti-gun") would support the case for every law abiding citizen in the world being able to buy whatever firearm they want for whatever reason they want and any number because as we all know law abiding citizens are not the problem.

The problem being faced is how you balance the needs and desires of good people in owning weapons with the ease and availability of weapons to criminals.

Essentially if you remove all restrictions so that it is easier for he good guys to buy a weapon then you are also making it easier for criminals to get better weapons.

 

[BritinBritain]

Essentially if you remove all restrictions so that it is easier for he good guys to buy a weapon then you are also making it easier for criminals to get better weapons.

It shouldnt be too difficult to find out if anyone has a criminal record. A phone call to the local cop shop would tell me if the person has a criminal record within minutes.

The majority of criminals in South Africa wouldn't bother buying the "usual" 9mm para pistols, 357 revolvers or bolt action rifles, they are more interested in selective fire AK47's, R4's and R5's.

 

[MontyB]

It shouldnt be too difficult to find out if anyone has a criminal record. A phone call to the local cop shop would tell me if the person has a criminal record within minutes.

The majority of criminals in South Africa wouldn't bother buying the "usual" 9mm para pistols, 357 revolvers or bolt action rifles, they are more interested in selective fire AK47's, R4's and R5's.

No it shouldn't but who do you rely on to do the check?

A) The retailer selling the weapon.
B) Local Police
C) No one because everyone has a right to be armed.

The problem with "just phoning the cop shop" is that law abiding retailers will follow do it and the police will do their bit but what about the dishonest retailer or lazy minimum wage Wal-mart 16 year old shop assistant, security systems that cannot be validated are not security systems.

 

[BritinBritain]

No it shouldn't but who do you rely on to do the check?

A) The retailer selling the weapon.
B) Local Police
C) No one because everyone has a right to be armed.

The problem with "just phoning the cop shop" is that law abiding retailers will follow do it and the police will do their bit but what about the dishonest retailer or lazy minimum wage Wal-mart 16 year old shop assistant, security systems that cannot be validated are not security systems.

Getting a dealers licence in South Africa is not a simple task, there are serious background checks, not only for me, but my staff. The slightest infringement of the law and I loses my living and could end up in jail. If I were able to sell as many legal firearms to legal owners as I could lay my hands on, why on earth would I and other dealers risk our living selling under the counter to criminals?

As for the cops, in South Africa we have what is called a Designated Firearms Officer, he is personally responsible for all firearm licence applications and licence issues once approved, somehow I don't think he would take the risk either.

Of course every law has its flaws, and someone somewhere is going to take advantage. Legal firearm owners are the most law abiding on the planet.

 

[MontyB]

Getting a dealers licence in South Africa is not a simple task, there are serious background checks, not only for me, but my staff. The slightest infringement of the law and I loses my living and could end up in jail. If I were able to sell as many legal firearms to legal owners as I could lay my hands on, why on earth would I and other dealers risk our living selling under the counter to criminals?

As for the cops, in South Africa we have what is called a Designated Firearms Officer, he is personally responsible for all firearm licence applications and licence issues once approved, somehow I don't think he would take the risk either.

Of course every law has its flaws, and someone somewhere is going to take advantage. Legal firearm owners are the most law abiding on the planet.

I get the impression most Commonwealth countries are similar in their licensing system, ours is tough on people wanting licenses but a little more relaxed afterwards.

Personally I can not see a problem with relaxing the rules on what can be purchased, I have always hated the MSA rules as I am just as dangerous with a semi-auto sports rifle as I with a military style semi-auto but requiring people to get a permit from the police (just a document to say you are not a known nutjob or criminal) before purchasing.
I also support a requirement to have gun owners do a firearms safety course.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Getting a dealers licence in South Africa is not a simple task, there are serious background checks, not only for me, but my staff. The slightest infringement of the law and I loses my living and could end up in jail. If I were able to sell as many legal firearms to legal owners as I could lay my hands on, why on earth would I and other dealers risk our living selling under the counter to criminals?

As for the cops, in South Africa we have what is called a Designated Firearms Officer, he is personally responsible for all firearm licence applications and licence issues once approved, somehow I don't think he would take the risk either.

Of course every law has its flaws, and someone somewhere is going to take advantage. Legal firearm owners are the most law abiding on the planet.

Getting a Federal Firearm License isn't a simple thing either... If I sell a gun under the table BATFE goes after me and put me in jail.... simple as that. Traces are easy to do... Make, Model, serial number of said firearm. Call the manufacturer, have them trace the serial number. From there they tell you whom they sold it to (distributor 90% of the time). Then they go after me. I have to keep a bound book that holds the serial, make, model, caliber, date of purchase and date of sale, and lastly whome I sold it too. That info is Driver's License Number, Name, Date of Birth, Address, Race, and sex.

I must call FDLE every time I make a sale. I must provide them with all of the same information plus social secuirty number. The buyer must fill out a three page form and I must keep on record for twnety years.

The bound book but be turned over to BATFE if I quit, retire, go out of business. BATFE can come and inspect my recoreds anytime they want without warrant. I get inspected at least once every two months. They don't tell me ahead of time, no warning nothing. Just "surprise".

If I don't following any of these rules I go to jail for ten puls years. I lose my lisence to deal firearms. I lose my rights to own firearms, and I can never serve in the armed forces again or continute my career as a police officer.

Trust me.... there are no reasons to have a permit system that a person must get to purchase a firearm. There are already enough steps in place to prevent criminals from buying them.... and once again... nothing stops a straw buyer for getting a gun for someone that cna't own or buy one. Not even a permit system. Ask New York City, ask LA, as Washington DC, ask Chicago.

CRIMINALS WILL GET ARMS.

 

[SHERMAN]

i dont see why not have permits. you have adrivers lisence, this is the same. In israel we have a card permit. you carry it with you and it allows you to conceal carry anywhere.

 

[5.56X45mm]

i dont see why not have permits. you have adrivers lisence, this is the same. In israel we have a card permit. you carry it with you and it allows you to conceal carry anywhere.

Because driving is a privilege, owning and bearing arms is a right.... One is listed in the Constitution and the other isn't... Simple as that. When permitting is done it is soon done with. History has been a teacher of that. Germany, Russia, Cuba, China, Vietnam, Laos, Iran, etc...

Most gun ownership permit programs were started in the USA to prevent people from owning arms. The Sullivan Act of New York City is a fine example...

The Sullivan Act qualifies as a may issue act, meaning the local police have discretion to issue a concealed carry license, as opposed to a shall issue act, in which state authorities must give a concealed handgun license to any person who satisfies specific criteria, often a background check and a safety class.

In New York City, the licensing authority is the police department, which rarely issues carry licenses to anyone except retired police officers. In addition, New Yorkers who have political influence, wealth, or celebrity appear to be issued licenses more liberally. If you're a common citizen in new York City your chance of getting a NYC Permit to own and carry is about is common as being struck by lighting and receiving oral sex from the entire 2008 playboy lineup.

It was passed on a wave of anti-immigrant rhetoric as a measure to disarm an alleged criminal element. The police granted the licenses, and could easily discriminate against "undesirable" elements. Sponsor "Big Tim" Sullivan reputedly desired the law so that his criminal cohorts could go about their activities unimpeded by citizens defending themselves with concealed handguns.

Same issue in many other states when they passed their laws they were against blacks, jews, catholics, and immigrants. They were designed to keep them from owning arms to defended themselves.

Once a right is taken away and turned into a privilege, you will never get it back as a right. By having to get a piece of paper from the government allowing you to own a firearm.... you are no longer a free citizen exercising your rights. You're a serf asking your overlord master if you may do something.

The difference between a citizen and a subject is the fact that they can arm themselves without government authorization.

 

[Chukpike]

Because driving is a privilege, owning and bearing arms is a right.... One is listed in the Constitution and the other isn't... Simple as that. When permitting is done it is soon done with. History has been a teacher of that. Germany, Russia, Cuba, China, Vietnam, Laos, Iran, etc...

Most gun ownership permit programs were started in the USA to prevent people from owning arms.

You can equate gun permits to the laws of various states requiring voters to register.

One example: Civil rights were violated by making laws that made it almost impossible for blacks to vote in southern states.
What the states hide behind is, the 2nd Amendment does not specificly address concealed carry.

Once a right is taken away and turned into a privilege, you will never get it back as a right. By having to get a piece of paper from the government allowing you to own a firearm.... you are no longer a free citizen exercising your rights. You're a serf asking your overlord master if you may do something.

 

[BritinBritain]

Getting a Federal Firearm License isn't a simple thing either... If I sell a gun under the table BATFE goes after me and put me in jail.... simple as that. Traces are easy to do... Make, Model, serial number of said firearm. Call the manufacturer, have them trace the serial number. From there they tell you whom they sold it to (distributor 90% of the time). Then they go after me. I have to keep a bound book that holds the serial, make, model, caliber, date of purchase and date of sale, and lastly whome I sold it too. That info is Driver's License Number, Name, Date of Birth, Address, Race, and sex.

I must call FDLE every time I make a sale. I must provide them with all of the same information plus social secuirty number. The buyer must fill out a three page form and I must keep on record for twnety years.

The bound book but be turned over to BATFE if I quit, retire, go out of business. BATFE can come and inspect my recoreds anytime they want without warrant. I get inspected at least once every two months. They don't tell me ahead of time, no warning nothing. Just "surprise".

If I don't following any of these rules I go to jail for ten puls years. I lose my lisence to deal firearms. I lose my rights to own firearms, and I can never serve in the armed forces again or continute my career as a police officer.

Trust me.... there are no reasons to have a permit system that a person must get to purchase a firearm. There are already enough steps in place to prevent criminals from buying them.... and once again... nothing stops a straw buyer for getting a gun for someone that cna't own or buy one. Not even a permit system. Ask New York City, ask LA, as Washington DC, ask Chicago.

CRIMINALS WILL GET ARMS.

It sounds like your record keeping is similar to mine. We have a firearms register where as you stated in your post all details of the firearm are entered, as well as the name and address and I.D. number of the buyer once (if) he gets his licence. The licence process can take two to three years. I have had customers waiting as long as 5 years waiting for their licence, This year alone I have had 3 customers have been murdered while waiting for their licence.

Every month I have to send to the Central Firearms Registry in Pretoria all details of firearms purchased or sold. If nothing goes out or comes in, I still have to send up paperwork with the terms “None Bought” and “None Collected” Not only firearms are logged in a register, so is ammunition. A licence holder is allowed 200 rounds per licence, or if they are a dedicated sportsman of hunter, they can get more. When a customer buys ammunition I have to enter the make and calibre, the firearm details and the name and address of the purchaser.



The only thing this law has done, is caused a massive increase in the illegal firearm market, criminals are still getting what they want, the law abiding are the ones being victimised.

 

[Donkey]

I'm all for the first two mentioned after the gun control. Not sure how either one dismantles society. First off, 16 year olds know what he heck they're doing. If they f*ck up, so to speak, that's really their problem. They can have abortions or give their kids up to adoptions, no questions asked. As for youth rights? Of course I'm for that! Knowing what's going on in the world but having no way to really affect how it looks when it's our turn to be in charge is REALLY frustrating. I can't tell you how many times what I've said has been discounted because I'm "just one of those teenage rebels." Just because I'm 16 or 18 or whatever doesn't mean that I somehow don't know what's going on or don't understand it. And also remember that feudalism served Europe well for so long too. But that doesn't mean that it was good.

As for the comparison to the post-1945 world? Really? Today's world is a much much different place. Let's just remember that.

I agree with you though, Hokie. When an :cen: whooping is in order, an :cen: whooping is the best solution.

Are you kiding me at that age you still dont know shizzle about shizzle and thats the facts jack. I'm 28 and I only know a little shizzle about even less shizzle, let's be serious here.

Age is more than just a number, it's the length of experince you have in life.

 

[5.56X45mm]

I was around firearms when i was 16.... hell. I've had them longer then that. Been hunting since I was about 10-12 years old. I knew what I was doing....

16 year olds know what they're doing.

During WWII plenty of 16 year old folk enlisted in the armed forces and fought the war to liberate to the world.

After WWII... society has change to such a degree that the idea of being an adult doesn't start till later in life. BULL CRAP.... 16 year olds used to work, fight in wars, get married, and start families. But that has changed today... Over parenting is one main issue.

Trust me... most 16 year olds know what's going on.... if you let them act like 16 year olds and not over sized 10 year olds.

 

[Donkey]

I was around firearms when i was 16.... hell. I've had them longer then that. Been hunting since I was about 10-12 years old. I knew what I was doing....

16 year olds know what they're doing.

During WWII plenty of 16 year old folk enlisted in the armed forces and fought the war to liberate to the world.

After WWII... society has change to such a degree that the idea of being an adult doesn't start till later in life. BULL CRAP.... 16 year olds used to work, fight in wars, get married, and start families. But that has changed today... Over parenting is one main issue.

Trust me... most 16 year olds know what's going on.... if you let them act like 16 year olds and not over sized 10 year olds.

I might not have been clear...Being able to understand how to operate a firearm, or for that matter any tool, safely is not as hard as say choosing to have a child. Understanding the consequence of doing certian things now thinking they are invicible or that it wont affect them for the rest of there life.

I will still say that adult supervision and instruction should be always used up and to the point the adult feels the child has the appropriate levels of comprehension on the subject mater.

I am not saying kids shouldnt be allowed to shoot. I was 6 when I shot my first gun and have been around them my entire life, and to this day I still have yet to shoot a person.

 

[SHERMAN]

Im not talking of permits as a way to limit gun ownership. The point is to make sure people who carry are people who wont make left-wing idiots to say "see, we told you so!".