It has been a while and no one seems to have

[MontyB]

discussed it so I figured it was time to see if there is any interest in the Snowden/NSA sh*t storm that seems to have broken...

I have to admit the lack of interest/outrage in the US I find interesting given the number of times I have heard the Ben Franklin "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." quote or a derivative there of over the last few years.We heard all through the cold war how communist dictatorships controlled their people through massive surveillance and in recent years about the evils of Chinese hackers and now it would seem that neither the Stassi nor the Bejing brigade have anything on the NSA.Is Snowden right or wrong in doing what he did?Is the loss of privacy worth any results that may have come from this program? Boundless Informant: the NSA's secret tool to track global surveillance data

Revealed: The NSA's powerful tool for cataloguing global surveillance data – including figures on US collection



The color scheme ranges from green (least subjected to surveillance) through yellow and orange to red (most surveillance). Note the '2007' date in the image relates to the document from which the interactive map derives its top secret classification, not to the map itself.

The National Security Agency has developed a powerful tool for recording and analysing where its intelligence comes from, raising questions about its repeated assurances to Congress that it cannot keep track of all the surveillance it performs on American communications.
The Guardian has acquired top-secret documents about the NSA datamining tool, called Boundless Informant, that details and even maps by country the voluminous amount of information it collects from computer and telephone networks.
The focus of the internal NSA tool is on counting and categorizing the records of communications, known as metadata, rather than the content of an email or instant message.
The Boundless Informant documents show the agency collecting almost 3 billion pieces of intelligence from US computer networks over a 30-day period ending in March 2013. One document says it is designed to give NSA officials answers to questions like, "What type of coverage do we have on country X" in "near real-time by asking the SIGINT [signals intelligence] infrastructure."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining#

Any opinions?

 

[George]

From the Conservative side of things...Conservatives in DC see the threat and are allowing this to happen. The Liberal side has trust in Liberal led Govt so they are OK with increasing govt. power. Attendees at the Democratic Party's National Convention were taped proudly saying they belong to the Govt. Too many don't want freedom vs a govt security blanket. The "Frog in water that gets slowly hotter" senario is playing out.

 

[udaka]

can the American government monitor on my computer? But I think CIA is no interesting on my computer.
Because only there some porn movie nothing else in my hard driver! :sorry: I can't imaginable, how difficult if the USA want to monitor billions computer of global, how they can fulfill?

 

[MontyB]

From the Conservative side of things...Conservatives in DC see the threat and are allowing this to happen. The Liberal side has trust in Liberal led Govt so they are OK with increasing govt. power. Attendees at the Democratic Party's National Convention were taped proudly saying they belong to the Govt. Too many don't want freedom vs a govt security blanket. The "Frog in water that gets slowly hotter" senario is playing out.

But what threat?
I am somewhat at a loss to understand what the threat is, my government is now passing laws to increase the power of our own spying agencies (internal mainly) and they are doing it under what is refered to as "urgency" yet New Zealand has never had internal terrorism nor external for that matter, the British are doing the same and your lot are downloading the internet daily for fun.

How did we suddenly go from being "freedom loving nations" to "surveillance states" so quickly and why does no one seem to care?

can the American government monitor on my computer? But I think CIA is no interesting on my computer.
Because only there some porn movie nothing else in my hard driver! :sorry: I can't imaginable, how difficult if the USA want to monitor billions computer of global, how they can fulfill?

I was out drinking one night with a friend who is a police officer and I happily told him "I have no problem with surveillance as I have nothing hide" his response was that I shouldn't be so smug as 20 years as a cop had taught him one thing, "everyone has something to hide".

For example what happens to your future job opportunities, political aspirations, social standing etc. if that "some porn movies" gets you labelled as a deviant?

I find this a good example of the problem and understand that these things are not just "American" problems as they are happening all over the place...

https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724

http://www.spiegel.de/international...to-facebook-post-about-nsa-walk-a-911451.html

 

[George]

But what threat?
I am somewhat at a loss to understand what the threat is, my government is now passing laws to increase the power of our own spying agencies (internal mainly) and they are doing it under what is refered to as "urgency" yet New Zealand has never had internal terrorism nor external for that matter, the British are doing the same and your lot are downloading the internet daily for fun.

How did we suddenly go from being "freedom loving nations" to "surveillance states" so quickly and why does no one seem to care?



I was out drinking one night with a friend who is a police officer and I happily told him "I have no problem with surveillance as I have nothing hide" his response was that I shouldn't be so smug as 20 years as a cop had taught him one thing, "everyone has something to hide".

The main job of Govt. is its own security, that's what gun control is about, keeping govt safe from its Citizens. In the case of here in the States we've had WTC attack #1, WTC attack #2(9-11), the Boston Marathon bombing, at least a couple attempted bombings in Times Square, the Hassan/Islamist attack @ Ft. Hood(dismissed by Obama as "work place violence), enough to "sell" the need for intrusion. There was a vote in the Republican controlled House by a bipartisan group of Conservative & Liberals to scale back the surviellance last week, it failed. N.Z. isn't a military threat to islamic expansion, so you are peobably safe untill after they have overrun/overwhelmed western Europe & N. America through, if nothing else, unrestrained immigration & outbreeding.
Too many people here have been indoctrinated through out their school years by Liberal teachers that the Govt is good & is looking out for their best interests. I suspect they no longer read 1984.

 

[MontyB]

The main job of Govt. is its own security, that's what gun control is about, keeping govt safe from its Citizens. In the case of here in the States we've had WTC attack #1, WTC attack #2(9-11), the Boston Marathon bombing, at least a couple attempted bombings in Times Square, the Hassan/Islamist attack @ Ft. Hood(dismissed by Obama as "work place violence), enough to "sell" the need for intrusion. There was a vote in the Republican controlled House by a bipartisan group of Conservative & Liberals to scale back the surviellance last week, it failed. N.Z. isn't a military threat to islamic expansion, so you are peobably safe untill after they have overrun/overwhelmed western Europe & N. America through, if nothing else, unrestrained immigration & outbreeding.
Too many people here have been indoctrinated through out their school years by Liberal teachers that the Govt is good & is looking out for their best interests. I suspect they no longer read 1984.

Sorry who is over running what now?
I am confused as to what you are trying to say here:
Is it:
A) I am ok living under surveillance 24/7 on the off chance a terrorist may slip past a lesser security network?
Because lets face it apart from 9/11 every attempted terrorist attack has been thwarted by good old fashion police work.

or

B) The government is doing this just to keep itself safe from its citizens?

 

[George]

Sorry who is over running what now?
I am confused as to what you are trying to say here:
Is it:
A) I am ok living under surveillance 24/7 on the off chance a terrorist may slip past a lesser security network?
Because lets face it apart from 9/11 every attempted terrorist attack has been thwarted by good old fashion police work.

or

B) The government is doing this just to keep itself safe from its citizens?

C They're way out of bounds. The guy who wrote the Law said that it wasn't intended to be this vast. Needs to be cut back to more pertnent suspects. As it is they are going 3 steps beyond the actual caller and reciever. Also the Post Office is photoing the exterior of every piece of mail in the US.

 

[MontyB]

C They're way out of bounds. The guy who wrote the Law said that it wasn't intended to be this vast. Needs to be cut back to more pertnent suspects. As it is they are going 3 steps beyond the actual caller and reciever. Also the Post Office is photoing the exterior of every piece of mail in the US.

So why is no one leaping up and down about it, one whiff of gun control and you are all waving your arms and pretending there is a god given right to kill anyone you like but strip every other right and pretense to privacy and no one shows the slightest angst.

So back to the original question then Snowden right or wrong, traitor or patriot?

 

[udaka]

U.S manipulate networks and media more rigorous and metamorphosis compare CCP.

But their technology is more good relatively , and better camouflage.

Chinese Communist Party control the network and public opinion, still are the level in the 20th century .

 

[George]

So why is no one leaping up and down about it, one whiff of gun control and you are all waving your arms and pretending there is a god given right to kill anyone you like but strip every other right and pretense to privacy and no one shows the slightest angst.

So back to the original question then Snowden right or wrong, traitor or patriot?

I'm still on the fence on this, basic thought is Traitor, but....

 

[MontyB]

I'm still on the fence on this, basic thought is Traitor, but....

I tend to go the other way on that one, for both Manning and Snowden the problem was one of who you go to when the people you are reporting as doing wrong doing are the people you report to.

The argument has been raised that if their conscience would not allow them to continue what they doing then they should have just quit but in many respects that is similar to saying rather than turn in your boss for a crime you should resign and say nothing.

Manning I am a little less supportive of as he released a lot of material designed to make the government look bad as well as material to back his case so I think his actions were more personal where as Snowden to date has not put anyone at risk and only released information that supports his actions.

 

[George]

I tend to go the other way on that one, for both Manning and Snowden the problem was one of who you go to when the people you are reporting as doing wrong doing are the people you report to.

The argument has been raised that if their conscience would not allow them to continue what they doing then they should have just quit but in many respects that is similar to saying rather than turn in your boss for a crime you should resign and say nothing.

Manning I am a little less supportive of as he released a lot of material designed to make the government look bad as well as material to back his case so I think his actions were more personal where as Snowden to date has not put anyone at risk and only released information that supports his actions.

Where Manning is enlisted in the Army he'd be more shootable than the civilian employee would be. At the same time on the Snowden one the guy who wrote the Law says they're going way beyond the Intent it is troubling.

 

[MontyB]

Where Manning is enlisted in the Army he'd be more shootable than the civilian employee would be. At the same time on the Snowden one the guy who wrote the Law says they're going way beyond the Intent it is troubling.

Maybe he has said they have gone beyond the intent I have little doubt they have but it is the lack of a reaction from lawmakers and citizens that has me confused given the number of times we have heard the right in particular waffling on about freedoms, rights and almighty Constitution I figured someone may have mentioned the loss of a couple of amendments.

I also find it ironic that we suddenly get "serious" terrorist threats as soon as people start looking into the NSA's activities, I am not sure a whole lot of people are buying into this process of "bad new released, roll out a terror threat to take peoples minds off it".

So far the system seems to be that countries like New Zealand, Australia and England spy on America, America spies on everyone else and all the data goes into a big database for everyone to read that way we can claim that we are not spying on our own people we just have access to the data that everyone else collected, it is the old Plausible deniability system at its best.

 

[George]

I also find it ironic that we suddenly get "serious" terrorist threats as soon as people start looking into the NSA's activities, I am not sure a whole lot of people are buying into this process of "bad new released, roll out a terror threat to take peoples minds off it".

.

Definetly suspicious, like Clinton bombing the asprin factory because of the Lewensky Scandal was about to go public.

 

[MontyB]

Definetly suspicious, like Clinton bombing the asprin factory because of the Lewensky Scandal was about to go public.

There is no doubt that the tactic has been around a while but given that pretty much everyone sees through it now I really wonder why they roll it out every time.

The problem now though is that trust is so low in the system that the threats no longer have an affect and I am prepared to bet that even if there was an attack there would be a trend towards believing a false flag operation (a term I have in the past assigned to conspiracy crackpots) before a terrorist one.

In many respects the system has defeated itself.

 

[Yossarian]

There is no doubt that the tactic has been around a while but given that pretty much everyone sees through it now I really wonder why they roll it out every time.

The problem now though is that trust is so low in the system that the threats no longer have an affect and I am prepared to bet that even if there was an attack there would be a trend towards believing a false flag operation (a term I have in the past assigned to conspiracy crackpots) before a terrorist one.

In many respects the system has defeated itself.

Why do you think I hold my breathe anymore? We are so trained in this country to eat the crap and guzzle the cheap beer that we not only fail to think about our standing in relation towards any threatening party or nation.

That we fail to understand many of the root circumstances that put us in line for conflict in the first place. A just reason for war or unjust we just don't think.

Scratch that.

We actually at this point we actually RESIST thinking the situation over before blindly going alone with the "official story".

So violations of American citizens rights being so tolerable? Well, quite frankly with our apathy towards run away foreign affairs being an example it's absolutely a no brainer our rights are paper angels as they are now.

And although I understand this I am quite just plain out too tired to try to shake anyone by the shoulders anymore. The citizenry gets the government they deserve, our fore fathers got sick of their injustice and changed things. However we cannot even muster the plain energy to care about the tools they tried to leave us so we today would have to endure the same fate.

So we get what we get, I hate it but it's too expensive to move the moon right now.

 

[MontyB]

The problem is that now is not the time for apathy and this is not just an American problem Britain is passing new GCSB laws and so are we in New Zealand aimed at streamlining the ability to gather data.

I am not sure what is happening in the USA and Britain in terms of fighting this sort of thing but locally a number of high profile people (The Law Society and past Intelligence chiefs to name a few) have come out against the changes and it now it is down to a 1 vote majority in government.

The ironic thing for us is that the 1 vote that will pass it is an independent MP who was sacked from government for leaking information to the media and it turns out the inquiry has shown that they found out about it by illegally accessing his email and phone records yet for some reason he is still voting for the bill, amazing how dim politicians are.

 

[George]

The ironic thing for us is that the 1 vote that will pass it is an independent MP who was sacked from government for leaking information to the media and it turns out the inquiry has shown that they found out about it by illegally accessing his email and phone records yet for some reason he is still voting for the bill, amazing how dim politicians are.

Some things are inexplicable, unless he's being bought off.

 

[MontyB]

Well given that his party has been de-registered and he was against the bill then the next day he is for the bill and making comments like "When you have a willing buyer and a willing seller, you can always do a deal," I would suggest that he has well and truly been bought off.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10906794