Hand to hand combat

Cdt Matteo

Active member
I see a growing trend in militaries who put little enfisis on hand to hand combat training. I know that many asian militaries have great training programs and the Marine's have a decent one.

As a practitioner of Jujitsu (the martial art that most hand to hand combat systems are based off of) I see a need in enforcing this almost forgotten aspect. Punches, kicks are definately not sufficient for the war we are fighting today which has us often very close to the enemy.

Thoughts?
 
Western put more on marksmen but I do agree I think we should increase combatives, everyone should at least be level one. The army's combatives is good I think, the marines is really good.
 
It's mostly a fitness thing. It'll give you a complete work out. As for practicality, all you need is a front push kick for kicking in doors.
 
As a practitioner of Jujitsu (the martial art that most hand to hand combat systems are based off of) I see a need in enforcing this almost forgotten aspect. Punches, kicks are definately not sufficient for the war we are fighting today which has us often very close to the enemy.

Thoughts?

What other H2H system other then brazilian are based on jujitsu?
I reckon more countries use Krav as a base for military H2H then jujiutsu..
Krav has the added advantage of involving some pistol fighting in confined spaces as well.
But as these gents already told you.
You are better of training more instinctive shooting then hokus pokus ninja kicks.

//KJ.
 
And then urban combat happens where close quarters mean often only a few meters

With 40kg of gear on you're not going to be doing any hip throws. Go have a read of House to House if you want to see what hand to hand is like.
 
Especially with a rifle in your hands.
Martial arts has its own benefits. Mostly mental and physical fitness. But for a potential soldier it's not something I'd be stressing over.
 
What happened to bayonets? A knife on the end of a stick seems better than empty hands.

As far as practical H2H systems go, I would definitely look into Krav Maga, combat Sambo, and kajukembo (though this one is designed with street fighting in mind, not sure how well it would work wearing all that gear). Definitely worth your while as an individual, but I agree more time with the rifle would be more useful to a military organization than H2H training that really wouldn't matter very much by comparison.
 
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The Army Combatives program is based on BJJ and Muay Thai. As for a decline in combatives training... I'm not sure if I follow that. The current Army training regulation states that combatives training MUST be on the training schedule at all company and platoon levels in the Army. We have sent many of our troops to the fight house on FT Hood to become certified trainers, and then they train the rest of the guys. If you want more info, google Army Field Manual 3-25.150 and download it in PDF form. I also favor shooting people, and the combatives manual is very practical when it comes to that. It plainly states that the winner in a hand to hand fight is usually the guy who's friend shows up with a gun. Here's the point: hand to hand combat will not win a war, but the discipline and determination it takes to become a great hand to hand fighter will.
 
Hand to hand fighting, the idea is kill the other person and not let him get close enough so that you can smell his breath. Give me a good trenching tool if I get that close and you can work it like some medieval Axe
 
Hand to hand fighting, the idea is kill the other person and not let him get close enough so that you can smell his breath. Give me a good trenching tool if I get that close and you can work it like some medieval Axe
Buddy i'm saying this with complete confidence, while i'd prefer not to fight an opponent who's armed with something sharp chances are i'm going to break your arm, take that trenching medieval axe of yours and shove it up your ass so deep it'll come out you nostrils and thats even in an unlikely event that you're bigger/stronger/faster because i've been trained to do that captain axeman.


How do you think American soldiers get abducted in Iraq? What do you think happens in room to room combat when there's no time to swing a gun.

Its not a war winner as stated but its absolutely neccesary and a soldier who can't fight in meele is dead.

Apart from that discipline, endurance and mental conditioning that makes a soldier a warrior is aquired only through such training.


@Wallabies.

Hand to hand training is diverse and includes stuff such simple as headbutting you with the front of my helmet so you can't write stupid stuff anymore or punching you in the solar plexus with the barrel of the gun.

Then there's the whole bayonet training, some of us prefer brass knuckles but generally the idea is that if i meet an enemy and its too close/late to shoot i can, despite my 40kg of equipment twist his head off in four different ways.

Also i'd be gratefull if you wouldnt lecture me i've been in a mechanized unit for over two years now i know what i'm training and we're training with 34 kg of equipment.

@Redneck.

A rifle has a butt and a barrel, you can stab someone in an eye with a barrel (which is a Krav Maga move) use the butt or just throw the rifle at the guy.

I know at least one soldier who saved his life by throwing his empty AKMS at a Pakistani insurgent confusing the guy for a split second he needed to crush the Pakis windpipe.

@Major Liability.

The problem with bayonets these days is that hth happens in cramped enviroments like indoors where its often difficult to swing a rifle around, i carry the regulation one but some of my buddies carry another strapped to a boot for easy access, today a bayonet is relegated to a role as a side weapon rather then rifle mounted, less space required to use it.
 
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@Redneck.

A rifle has a butt and a barrel, you can stab someone in an eye with a barrel (which is a Krav Maga move) use the butt or just throw the rifle at the guy.

I know at least one soldier who saved his life by throwing his empty AKMS at a Pakistani insurgent confusing the guy for a split second he needed to crush the Pakis windpipe.

The butt, barrel and bayonet are bayonet drill moves (at least in my training) and under normal circumstances are not covered by martial arts.
Krav Maga is somewhat unique in this sense.
If the said person's military doesn't offer Krav Maga, odds are he will have to learn the civilian version, which in most cases do not teach pistol and rifle techniques. Also, I'd like to see someone actually have the accuracy to stab someone's eye with a rifle barrel especially when the other person is not being all cooperative and stationary. I'd say having the face as the target with an eye hit as a bonus would be a far more realistic goal.
I suppose that throwing the rifle worked for that one soldier but in most cases it's not recommended.
 
The butt, barrel and bayonet are bayonet drill moves (at least in my training) and under normal circumstances are not covered by martial arts.
I dont know how it is in US army but most European armies train hand to hand combat with elements of Karate, Krav Maga, boxing and practical use of equipment and gear.

Krav Maga is at this point just a name for a sort of training most militaries use for a good few decades.
Also, I'd like to see someone actually have the accuracy to stab someone's eye with a rifle barrel

Actually the point of the move is not so much to stab the guy (though if you do manage that its great) but to make him flinch.

The natural reflex if you see a pointy object going for your face is to attempt to avoid it, this gives your assailant several options as to how to hurt you when you're open.
especially when the other person is not being all cooperative and stationary. I'd say having the face as the target with an eye hit as a bonus would be a far more realistic goal.
No but if a person is untrained say you, against a trained fighter you're going to duck and get a boot to your face, or you're going to jump sideways in which case a trained combatant can for example smash your head against the nearest wall etc.

The last thing you would do would be to ignore your natural reflex and push the barrel aside.
I suppose that throwing the rifle worked for that one soldier but in most cases it's not recommended.
That was absoutely despeate, the point is in 9/10 situations an unwashed insurgent is going to become a soldiers b*tch when in hand to hand combat, likewise if a soldier is going against a soldier he needs to be trained for all occasions including if i burst through the door and bump into the other guy which happens a lot during indoors combat.

Then there's a problem of drugs, various forces use increasingly effective combat drugs and steroids where you can pump half a clip and the guy will keep coming trailing his intestines behind him.

You need both the mental conditioning and knowledge that you can kick ass the training provides.
 
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