Hamass Wins Landslide Election
Whispering Death
Active member
Monty-B that's real cute. But this is a forum of politics and millitary history.
My reference to hitler was not some cute teenager going "omg hiter" it was a serious historical statement. Democracy does not automatically result in the creation of "good" governments. The point I was making and that Bones understood was that Hitler came to power through democracy. You say that "well it was the good will of the people so bad can't come of it" yet you completely ignore the historical facts that the worst actions have come from the good intentions of people. Hitler was one of them. Do you really think Germans in the late 1930s where evil commic book supervillians that ellected a supreme evil ruler to spread thier evil doctorine over the world? They all laughed "mwuhahahah" too while they ate their sausages made from jew-meat too right? No, and that's what I'm trying to teach you.
However, if you wish to cover your ears and scream "I'M NOT LISTENING I'M NOT LISTENING" then there's nothing that I can do. But throwing out some cute internet lingo doesn't go near debassing my historically proven point.
My reference to hitler was not some cute teenager going "omg hiter" it was a serious historical statement. Democracy does not automatically result in the creation of "good" governments. The point I was making and that Bones understood was that Hitler came to power through democracy. You say that "well it was the good will of the people so bad can't come of it" yet you completely ignore the historical facts that the worst actions have come from the good intentions of people. Hitler was one of them. Do you really think Germans in the late 1930s where evil commic book supervillians that ellected a supreme evil ruler to spread thier evil doctorine over the world? They all laughed "mwuhahahah" too while they ate their sausages made from jew-meat too right? No, and that's what I'm trying to teach you.
However, if you wish to cover your ears and scream "I'M NOT LISTENING I'M NOT LISTENING" then there's nothing that I can do. But throwing out some cute internet lingo doesn't go near debassing my historically proven point.
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The reason alot of left-wingers, or left-leanings idealist, and or pacifist like to get rid, or ignore, "the Hilter factor", (this includes making up stupid stuff like saying thread is over when someone mentions Hiltler) is because alot of times this is a perferct REAL world example which absolutely flies in the face of what they believe.
One of these beliefs is, if you act peacefully and show goodwill towards a country, no matter how that country acts or behaves, you will get peace back. Another of which is pre-emitive strikes are bad, among others. Hilter disproved these, but they don't want to listen to this, so they forget about this, and when you bring it up they have little or no more logic to counter this.
One of these beliefs is, if you act peacefully and show goodwill towards a country, no matter how that country acts or behaves, you will get peace back. Another of which is pre-emitive strikes are bad, among others. Hilter disproved these, but they don't want to listen to this, so they forget about this, and when you bring it up they have little or no more logic to counter this.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
That has little to do with it, I could sit here and dream up similarities between the GWB and Hitler or Israel and Nazi Germany hell if I twist hard enough I can make the pope Gengis Kahn incarnate but the just as in your case the fact would remain that these are different times, circumstances and there is no relationship.Whispering Death said:
Hence the reason the Usenet create Godwins law because if you have to sink to emotive arguements you never really had one in the first place.
Yes well a monocular view may lead to that belief but it is becoming apparent that if you cant come up with an argument we can always fall back on the leftist/liberal accusations. Seriously your entire post is pure guess work and supposition as to what so called "left wingers" think and quite frankly I am not sure you could spot a "liberal" if you tripped over one in the dark.gladius said:
The good news is that it isnt a forum rule its more an [SIZE=-1]etiquette thing and even more good news is that no matter what people around here may say neither Hamas nor the Iranians have the capacity to touch Israel in any serious way without destroying themselves in the process and most rational people realise that the leadership of the two groups are not stupid enough to wipe themselves out.Damien435 said:
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I have been reading some incredible stuff on this thread. But IMO it boils down to this:
The US supports Israel, no matter what. Israeli "apartheid", a "Berlin" wall, cutting of power, preventing to go to work... it is all a means to an end. Criticise this and you are an instant Palestinian. The Netherlands have always supported Israel, but to some of you we don't. Simply because we don't say that support equals turning a blind eye to the things they do.
Secondly; if I understand some of the posters correct, they say: democracy is good, as long as it is our variant. So you tell them they can vote, but if they vote something you don't like..... And what do you suggest now? Send in the military to exterminate the ones who voted Hamas? What you are suggesting isn't democracy; it is tellling somebody what they should and should not do.
The historical card is a neat trick. Sure Hitler was voted and turned out to be a bloody monster. So now you say it will happen again automatically. If you want to avoid this, then don't support democracy. If you do support democracy you have to accept this as a possibility.
Whispering Death
Active member
MontyB said:
Well it is good then, that I speak to a greater audiance than you alone. I believe any unbiased observer can see that my argument is purely intellectual and you have to create a straw man out of it to try and wiggle around the gaping whole in your "well the people wanted something good some hamas must be good" argument.
Ted - you're being just as rediculous as our boy MontyB. I didn't say "omg palestine=hitler omg wtf". I am trying to show any person who will just take the time to let the synapses between brain cells fire off for a moment, that democracy does not equal a great government. Those that think so are as blind idealogues as you and MontyB appear to be in this thread. The point is, if I can make this any clearer. That just because voters INTEND for something good to happen by voting for Hamas doesn't mean that Hamas is good.
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But WD, I agree with MontyB. I am, however not unbaised on this subject either... But my intellectual view is that historical events are non-repetitive. The systematics behind certain motives might be, but the end results are not. To say that Munich "38 is about the same as Ramallah "06, is stepping over many many unknown variables of contemporary history.The only similarity is that someone unwanted came to power via a democratic route. The difference is that Hitler wasn't unwanted when he was elected in "33 by the US.
Why are all people and news agencys talking about a surprising result of this election? For me it was obvious first time they mentioned that Hamas was going to run for government, I find all talks about surprise frekking hilarious!
:shoothea:
I think the world need to look beyond all BS and begin see the reality for what it is and stop talking about Europeans having a identity crisis that they are pounding us with on CNN. Europe has no identity crisis, they who comes to Europe has it because the majority of them refuses to assimilate to a western lifestyle and nothing are done to make that happen, the politicians have just got their first wake up call and more are to come, Belgium, France, Australia, heck that is nothing if we are going to talk identity crisis. People need to choose what kind of world they want to live in to be honest. Do they want to live in a theocratic Hamas or Iranian kind of socity ruled by the Koran or do they want to live in a western socity ruled by law and order where women are allowed to show their face or not?
There is a plan behind everything and I stand fast when it comes to the author and Nobel Price Winner VS Naipau and his book Beyond Belife read it get educated, and stop accepting this - you the Europeans and Westerners - it is your fault band-wagon BS they are running. Time to take a step back, take a good look at the chess board and realize that something is frekking wrong with this picture, and that you arent to be blamed for the stupidity, stupidity! of our world leaders.
You cant be held liable for the fact that a small majority think everything is pink and dandy can you? You cant be liable for the fact that almost everything you see and hear on TV are BS can you? You cant be held responsible for the fact that 30-50% of the people in the west dont give a damn and dont vote can you? Time for all to smell the dead roses and get up from those god damn dreamlands they are living in and recognize that we ladies and gentlemen are standing right on the threshold to our own cultures extermination from the inside outside in.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation far beyond anything that can be called moderate as Fatha was. They will probably help Iran to blow Israel from the face of this earth and then negotiations are going to take place. But not untill that, Mars 2006 will probably be the month when we all can wave bye bye to Israel if no imidiate actions are taken, by a western coalition of the same size as Gulf War 1 but this one all Western. Any nuthead can feel the smell of BS when it is burning. Close all borders, make a constiution that says that Islam is banned as a religion inside Europe, they who dont accept this well give them free tickets home then. Europe as the rest of the western world and culture are hold hostage without recognize that fact, and not the other way around. Europes Identity crisis? Frekking hilarious.
:lol:
Hello guys Im back....
Doc.S
:viking:
:shoothea:
I think the world need to look beyond all BS and begin see the reality for what it is and stop talking about Europeans having a identity crisis that they are pounding us with on CNN. Europe has no identity crisis, they who comes to Europe has it because the majority of them refuses to assimilate to a western lifestyle and nothing are done to make that happen, the politicians have just got their first wake up call and more are to come, Belgium, France, Australia, heck that is nothing if we are going to talk identity crisis. People need to choose what kind of world they want to live in to be honest. Do they want to live in a theocratic Hamas or Iranian kind of socity ruled by the Koran or do they want to live in a western socity ruled by law and order where women are allowed to show their face or not?
There is a plan behind everything and I stand fast when it comes to the author and Nobel Price Winner VS Naipau and his book Beyond Belife read it get educated, and stop accepting this - you the Europeans and Westerners - it is your fault band-wagon BS they are running. Time to take a step back, take a good look at the chess board and realize that something is frekking wrong with this picture, and that you arent to be blamed for the stupidity, stupidity! of our world leaders.
You cant be held liable for the fact that a small majority think everything is pink and dandy can you? You cant be liable for the fact that almost everything you see and hear on TV are BS can you? You cant be held responsible for the fact that 30-50% of the people in the west dont give a damn and dont vote can you? Time for all to smell the dead roses and get up from those god damn dreamlands they are living in and recognize that we ladies and gentlemen are standing right on the threshold to our own cultures extermination from the inside outside in.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation far beyond anything that can be called moderate as Fatha was. They will probably help Iran to blow Israel from the face of this earth and then negotiations are going to take place. But not untill that, Mars 2006 will probably be the month when we all can wave bye bye to Israel if no imidiate actions are taken, by a western coalition of the same size as Gulf War 1 but this one all Western. Any nuthead can feel the smell of BS when it is burning. Close all borders, make a constiution that says that Islam is banned as a religion inside Europe, they who dont accept this well give them free tickets home then. Europe as the rest of the western world and culture are hold hostage without recognize that fact, and not the other way around. Europes Identity crisis? Frekking hilarious.
:lol:
Hello guys Im back....
Doc.S
:viking:
I concur with you on this WD. But I was just reacting to the common point of view that we should intervene right away, ingnoring the fact that it were the Palestinians who voted Hamas and not the Europeans. I just had my cage rattled by the statement that it is our fault and we are already with one foot in the grave.
But again: we agree that democracy does not equal good governance!
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Ted said:
No, Ted.
1.Democracy is not merely "holding elections". Democracy is a lot more: Freedom of press, of opinion, of religion, human rights, fair trial in court and many more. That's why State Secretary Condoleeza Rice stresses so much the importance of giving birth to democracy from the bottom (bottom-up), and trying so hard to spread common and shared values among the population. And no, elections were probably semi-democratic in Palestine, but the Palestinian society is NOT a democratic one, as everybody knows. If the Palestinians lived in a free and democratic society they would have not elected Hamas. As for the blame Europe part of your comment, do not forget that up to a few months ago Europe had been keeping funding Hamas. We used to send them funds by the millions, while the US never did. Guess who persuaded the rest of the Union into cutting aid to Hamas and throwing them into our black list? Yes, our current conservative government when it was holding the presidency of the European Union.
2.To me there was little practical difference between Hamas and al Fatah.
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godofthunder9010
Active member
Hey Doc S. nice to see you again!! I'm willing to cling to the tiniest shred of hope that the Democratic System will be stronger than the bigotry and hatred that Hamas has represented for so very long. With all this new responsibility and without having the option of ignoring the very existence of Israel, Hamas is forced to adapt. Maybe, just maybe Hamas will change itself into something better. I find this highly unlikely, but at least its a possibility. One very big positive is that Hamas in control of Palestine does not equate to "A World Power to be Reckoned With" nor "Another Nazi Germany." Palestine will not have the means to wield that sort of global power for several generations (if ever), barring something unbelievably unexpected like an Monster Meteor that only kills non-Palestinians.
But IG, this is so very hypothetical. You instate a form of democracy and when you don't like the result you claim it isn't true democracy. I bet that if a very Israel oriented government would have emerged you would claim that true democracy had done it's job!
And saying that they don't have true democracy is so condescending! Just because you don't like the result can only mean one thing: they don't know what they are doing!
godofthunder9010
Active member
I think that the Palestinian People have gotten themselves into the habit of listening to groups like the Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah, etc. I think that the results of the elections should come as no surprise, but I also believe that its bad news. The trouble now is that because this was the most Democratic thing to happen to the Palestinian people to date, it has to be accepted by Israel and the West until they do something irresponsible. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the utterly stupid part. Hamas has been "irresponsible" since its creation.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Ted said:
You're wrong. Answer this: Do Palestinians have a free society where if you criticize their political leader you are protected by a detailed set of laws laid out by Congressmen? No, unless they live within Israel.
Do Palestinians have a fair and due process of law when they get trialed? No, unless they live within Israel.
Can a Palestinian write what he thinks on a publicly published newspaper, saying anything (e.g. the Palestinian Authority sucks because they're just terrorists and this and that) and nobody will cause him trouble? No, unless he lives within Israel.
Can a Palestinian go to school wearing a kippah, as a sign of friendship with Israel? No, they can't, although many Jewish kids wear kefiahs in Israel.
Can a Palestinian teacher teach his kids that the Jews are good guys and the Nazis and the terrorists who kill civilians on buses are rotten bastards? No he could never do that.
Do you really think a Palestinian could sue a minister from any Fatah government or publicly denounce the leaders' corruption and expect to enjoy real justice? No, never. Remember Fatah has always systematically jailed or eliminate Palestinian journalists who were not aligned with Arafat and did not cherish him.
Are minorities respected in the Palestinian society? No, because they do not have any minority. They would not respect a Jewish minority while Israel is home to more than one million Arabs with Israeli passport. And please note that respect for minorities is a true aspect of any democracy.
I'm not saying elections were rigged, I'm just saying elections do not mean democratic society altogether, in spite of their major importance. And this is precisely the case of Palestine. Palestine is not even a State, how can they be democratic? They don't even have control over their own police or territory.
This is why the fact that Hamas won elections does not change my view on democracy in any way. My faith in the terrific effects of democracy is unrivaled an stronger than ever.
Anyways I'm -paradoxically- moderately optimistic about what will come next.
Have you read what The Telegraph says?
"Arab leaders - and not a few Europeans - will be muttering to the Americans: "We told you so. Allowing the ordinary Muslims to vote freely is a bad idea."
Yet this would be the wrong lesson to draw. The popularity of political Islam reflects the bankruptcy of the political order that has gone before. When the state fails, as it has done across the Middle East since the end of the colonial era, then Muslims instinctively turn to the mosque.
So the first lesson has to be a gradual reform of autocratic Arab states, risky as that may seem.
With Arafat, or even his successor, Mahmoud Abbas, there has always been a debate over whether the Palestinian Authority was unable, or merely unwilling, to stop the violence. Palestinian leaders have turned weakness into a diplomatic art-form, telling Israel and the West they needed more concessions in order to have the authority to take on Hamas. With the terrorists in office, there should be no such ambiguity. When the suicide bombs go off, the address for protests will be obvious: the office of the Palestinian prime minister".
And then you sarcastically ask Gladius: "What if your democracy experiment gives rise to something like that too?", showing that you do not have any "democracy experiment" up your sleeve, and you couldn't care less about that weird concept. Are you somewhat adverse to democracy yourself?
Last. You said: "Just because you don't like the result can only mean one thing: they don't know what they are doing!"... I never said they don't know, they do very well.
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godofthunder9010
Active member
Well, one positive would be that since Hamas is more or less forced to have a dialogue with Israel, it is perfectly reasonable for Israel to request that the Palestinian Authority do more to stop Hamas from attacking Israelis. Afterall, the Palestinian Authority is Hamas. Kindof removes alot of the excuses.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
mmarsh said:
From dictionary.com: "ally"= One in helpful association with another.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Yes right I was talking about the government too. The government of Iran is not the legitimate representative of the Iranian people.