Haiti and better solutions from military?

perseus

perseus

Active member
I'm not convinced these aid efforts are of much immediate use to those with serious injuries, especially those trapped in rubble, exposed to the heat or cold etc in disaster areas since most must be long dead before any international help arrives. Medium term help such as clean drinking water, food, medicines should be possible, but even this takes ages to arrive due to the crumbled transport infrastructure of a disaster zone.

This has got me thinking. Is this a renewed role for genuine paratroops who can be dropped on any flat land from an aircraft at very short notice. Perhaps a pre-prepared quick response unit could provide some emergency aid within hours of a quake especially in this case being situated not too far from the US mainland air bases. These initial aid workers might also prepare air strips for medium term aid. Perhaps marines with landing craft could also provide medium term aid via the beaches.

All this doesn't seem far removed from a 'D-Day' or Ichon type operation where one has to get lots of supplies on land using a largely non existent infrastructure. Except in this case it should be a bit easier since there is no military opposition.

I suppose countries with potential disaster zones would have to agree in advance who exactly would be allowed to 'invade' them and in what circumstances. Presumably these aid workers would still have to be armed and therefore consist of full time troops.

Just some loose thoughts.

Bottlenecks and infrastructure damage have been holding up aid efforts in Haiti, where a devastating earthquake has left as many as 45,000-50,000 dead.
Aid has been arriving from around the world, but there is little sign of help beyond the airport, correspondents say. Many are spending a third night without shelter or in makeshift camps in the ruined capital, Port-au-Prince.
US President Barack Obama pledged a huge aid effort, but warned it would take time for help to reach people. President Obama and French President Nicolas Sarkozy, working with Brazil, Canada and other countries, will organise a conference on reconstruction in Haiti, the French presidency has announced.

'Nothing coming'
But on the ground, correspondents said there was little immediate sign of a co-ordinated relief effort.
Planes queued to land at Haiti's airport, while the port was too damaged to use. Roads were blocked by debris.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8460574.stm
 
Countries are sending troops to halp with law and order as we speak.
Problem with using paratroops are that they are by definition "light infantry" themselves with limited supplies and no one knows how long the Airfields are going to be closed.
Worst case scenario is that you put troops into an area and don´t know if you can resupply them much less supply them enough so they can help the locals at all.
The thought is relevant I agree, but it is something that will have to be planned extensively.

Not enough fuel to fly the aid flights out amongst other problems.
 
So they can go back to their lives of poverty? We need to stop propping up useless countries.
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Suppose we should stick to what we know and bomb them instead? Trouble is nature got in first, reducing the place to rubble, Darn it!

Countries are sending troops to halp with law and order as we speak.
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George Alagiah, Port-au-Prince
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This is really a crisis on the cusp of becoming much worse.
The first 48 hours are absolutely crucial. I have a worry that the aid is not going to get out quickly enough. There is no lifting capacity, no institutions of state that normally are expected to kick in.
The streets are littered with corpses, there are survivors, there are people looking for their families to see if they have any survivors. It's chaotic.
They are desperate people. It wouldn't be the first crisis in which people resorted to what we call looting, but they are just trying find some food and water.
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so just send in people to shoot the survivors then who are technically looting, would you loot in this situation? Not if someone was bringing you food and water instead of bullets.

Your compassion on these boards brings tears to my eyes.

Problem with using paratroops are that they are by definition "light infantry" themselves with limited supplies and no one knows how long the Airfields are going to be closed.

Worst case scenario is that you put troops into an area and don´t know if you can resupply them much less supply them enough so they can help the locals at all.
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This isn't a war situation no-one is trying to prevent supplies going in, it should be relatively straightforward to drop parachute supplies, it's only 1000km from Florida.

I'm really thinking of prepared packages which supply both the troops and civilians, with tents, food, water, medicines. Strictly the first to go in don't need any back up except for heavy lifting gear, and heavy transport, supplies can be parachuted in. Nearly all the deaths occurr within the first few days and they are still pissing around the airport co-ordinating themselves. Then again if we couldn't manage New Orleans.....

This doesn't sound like rocket science just needs pro-action rather than reaction
 
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perseus said:
This isn't a war situation no-one is trying to prevent supplies going in, it should be relatively straightforward to drop parachute supplies, it's only 1000km from Florida.
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Actually that's not necessarily true.
In an emergency situation like the one you see in Haiti, you have to assume (correctly) that there will be hostile elements in the area.
Where to drop these troops, by what means they will fortify themselves and with what supplies they will offer what kind of help for how long and how often they can and will be resupplied are all issues.
There may be those trying to prevent supplies going in. Maybe not by the port but further inland you just never know.

I think plenty of help is getting there but no matter how you look at it, it is a logistical nightmare.

50,000+ dead... that is just unacceptable :(
 
I can see where you are coming from and understand your issue. I too believe that relief aid in the form of looking for survivors comes way to late. I think that what you see as paratroopers being dropped not only brings quicker aid relief but also helps them train to respond to emergency calls much quicker. The only problem is, if the quake was so devastating does it mean that paratroopers may be forced to land further out due to the initial landing zones being to dangerous to land in.
 
First you need to understand why the first troops going in are the 82nd and a MEU. Both are alert forces able to put boots on the ground and create a presence and a secure lodgement for follow on forces. Both are trained to give limited humanitarian aid until follow on arrives and both are more than able to secure areas in which to land supplies. With out security the operation is in jepordey of becoming a cluster.

The 82nd has elements that can set up expiediant ATC for fixed wing and may actually have USAF CCT elements attached, the MEU has HST elements for helo control and support and beach and port elements for amphib control.

So besides the security assets both units are critical for setting the stage for opening up an orderly and secure flow of aid.
 
This isn't a war situation no-one is trying to prevent supplies going in, it should be relatively straightforward to drop parachute supplies, it's only 1000km from Florida.
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Dominican Republic relief workers leave at 6pm every night and return at 6am every day because of security concerns, that's 12 hours lost.

I can see where you are coming from and understand your issue. I too believe that relief aid in the form of looking for survivors comes way to late. I think that what you see as paratroopers being dropped not only brings quicker aid relief but also helps them train to respond to emergency calls much quicker. The only problem is, if the quake was so devastating does it mean that paratroopers may be forced to land further out due to the initial landing zones being to dangerous to land in.
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So you have hundreds of thousands of people swarming supplies and you don't expect violence? In Timor a platoon was breaking bones with batons defending a rice distribution point, in Somalia they were whacking people with what ever they could find to defend the food trucks. This is why they brought batons in. Starving people + no distribution method = chaos.
 
In any situation where order has broken down, there will be violence.
Look at what happened in major US cities whenever the power went out.
 
03USMC said:
The 82nd has elements that can set up expiediant ATC for fixed wing and may actually have USAF CCT elements attached, the MEU has HST elements for helo control and support and beach and port elements for amphib control.
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Air Force SOF (CCT/PJ) are already boots on the ground. They are the ones that secured the airport and got things up and running again.
 
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Its a pity the USA couldnt sort out the corruption in the Haiti governement. How many years worth of aid have they been recieveing????
And some hospitals there still dont have internal plumbing!!!!
 
the_13th_redneck said:
In any situation where order has broken down, there will be violence.
Look at what happened in major US cities whenever the power went out.
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What happened? Could you enlighten us?

Warwick said:
Its a pity the USA couldnt sort out the corruption in the Haiti governement. How many years worth of aid have they been recieveing????
And some hospitals there still dont have internal plumbing!!!!
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Why is it the US should take over this country and straighten out its problems.
Seems like in most cases US "interference" is not well received.

I have been to Haiti and the earthquake is probably an improvement. The current dollar value of aid being directed to Haiti is probably more than the country is worth. This is not meant to be mean spirited it is just more true then people want to hear. Because of my naval service, and my job in field service repairing machines, I have traveled to a lot of countries and Haiti was the hellhole of all.

Unfortunately the loss of life will probably go higher than what they have projected. On a good day Haiti would only have a minimal infrastructure operating, I am sure after the earthquake they have none.
 
Chukpike said:
What happened? Could you enlighten us?
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Looting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_blackout_of_1977
I have a hard time believing the looting happened in a peaceful and orderly manner.

In 2003, Ottawa experienced social disorder and rioting but the cities in the US did not. My guess (and I'm not alone on this one) is that it was largely due to a strengthened sense of brotherhood between Americans that was born out of Sept 11th. I was in the US during this time and I don't think the strong 9/11 emotions wore off from the general population until 2004.

Though not necessarily full blackouts, looting and violence was present after major natural disasters:
New Orleans, Louisiana, 2005
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_in_New_Orleans
Xenia, Ohio, 1974
http://www3.gendisasters.com/ohio/7975/xenia-oh-terrible-tornado-apr-1974
South Florida, 1992 (not so sure about the violence, but looting out of desperation did happen)
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3468303421.html

So if it can happen in America during a disaster, it can certainly happen in Haiti.

Feeling enlightened?
 
PJ24 said:
Air Force SOF (CCT/PJ) are already boots on the ground. They are the ones that secured the airport and got things up and running again.
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Good to know didn't know if they were acting independantly or with the eighty duece.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
In any situation where order has broken down, there will be violence.
Look at what happened in major US cities whenever the power went out.
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Chukpike said:
What happened? Could you enlighten us?
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the_13th_redneck said:
Looting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_blackout_of_1977
I have a hard time believing the looting happened in a peaceful and orderly manner.

In 2003, Ottawa experienced social disorder and rioting but the cities in the US did not. My guess (and I'm not alone on this one) is that it was largely due to a strengthened sense of brotherhood between Americans that was born out of Sept 11th. I was in the US during this time and I don't think the strong 9/11 emotions wore off from the general population until 2004.

Though not necessarily full blackouts, looting and violence was present after major natural disasters:
New Orleans, Louisiana, 2005
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_in_New_Orleans
Xenia, Ohio, 1974
http://www3.gendisasters.com/ohio/7975/xenia-oh-terrible-tornado-apr-1974
South Florida, 1992 (not so sure about the violence, but looting out of desperation did happen)
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3468303421.html

So if it can happen in America during a disaster, it can certainly happen in Haiti.

Feeling enlightened?
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Not entirely as your original statement was:
"Look at what happened in major US cities whenever the power went out."

Then you proceed to show me one occasion from 1977 where rioting occurred with a power outage. The other occasion is Ottawa, which is not in the US.:smil:

In the link you gave for rioting during a blackout in NY in 1977, it mentions two other years 1965 and 2003 when rioting did not occur.

All though US cities lose power less than a lot of countries I would say riots do not happen whenever the power goes out.:sleep:
 
Yeah you're right. Not whenever surprisingly.
But either way, natural disaster or loss of order leading to looting and violence happens in most parts of the world, including the US and even Canada. So would it happen in Haiti? You bet.
Heck, what happened when the economy in Indonesia crashed in '97/'98 was crazy as well.
 
I think the 'breakdown of public order' is mainly hysteria, an excuse for the slowness. That said if you leave it too long it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

"..amidst the aftermath of the storm worsened, and included violent crimes, shootings, and looting, most of which turned out to be rumours.

One New Orleans police officer likened the conditions in the aftermath to Somalia, saying, "It's a war zone, and they're not treating it like one."[64] Officers had been giving up after working days straight with little or no support. President Bush said that saving lives should come first, but he and the local New Orleans Government also stated that they will have zero tolerance for looters. White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan affirmed that looters should not be allowed to take food, water or shoes, that they should get those things through some other way.[65] Gov. Blanco warned that troops had orders to shoot to kill, saying, "These troops are fresh back from Iraq, well trained, experienced, battle tested and under my orders to restore order in the streets. ... They have M-16s and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will."[66]
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sure you will be interested on the confiscation of firearms section !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
 
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My country is sending in 35 special forces soldiers to protect our SAR teams. One team already had to flee because they were attacked.
 
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