Hair Cuts. - Page 2




 
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April 9th, 2010  
usinfantryMOS11c10
 
 
I never had to shave once while in the Army. I am Jewish And I am not permitted to trim the sides of my beard. I was also allowed to wear my yarmulke or kippah under the Beret, and any other military headgear. While inside I was still permitted to wear my religious attire.

There are many things you wouldn't realize you can do.

A person of Scottish heritage can wear a kilt with a dress uniform.
A Samoan is Permitted to have facial tats if it relates to his religion.
A Muslim is allowed to make all of his daily prayers, even if it interrupts duty.

Any religious rights have to be respected by the service. Hence its the very first in the bill of rights.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If this right is being violated by any unit in any branch of service, then it needs to be brought to the attention of congressmen and respective officers of the unit. It would be a huge mistake to violate this after swearing an oath such as this.......

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Please read over the first and most important part of the oath again, for good measure.

=)

PS- as long as the headgear isn't clashing with the uniform it is allowed, I take this as meaning it must be of matching color it's okay.
And as for the facial hair, you have to have a waiver for it. I got mine.

If you think that religions don't have that much power in the military. Perhaps you should go to a military church service of your religion then walk into the chaplains office. This is the one place where you will never salute an officer, on or near the grounds of an area that is considered holy. The reasoning behind this is that there is a higher officer present at that area all ready.
April 9th, 2010  
PJ24
 
 
I see, well thanks for the correction. I didn't realize we'd grown so ridiculous. I think anyone that joins the military and then wants an exception to wear and appearance regulations due to religious beliefs should probably be left far behind in the rear with the gear.

But hey, that's just me. I play by big boy rules and I knew the regulations BEFORE I voluntarily signed that contract. A lot of things in my religion conflict with the military, I don't demand the military bend to me and my beliefs.

My opinion only. I'm sure your ego can handle it.
April 9th, 2010  
usinfantryMOS11c10
 
 
Sorry for the length of this post...... but here it goes.


DODD-1300.17

A. REISSUANCE AND PURPOSE
This Directive reissues reference (a) and, pursuant to references (b) and (c), prescribes policy, procedures, and responsibilities for the accommodation of religious practices in the Military Services.

C. POLICY
  1. A basic principle of our nation is free exercise of religion. The Department of Defense places a high value on the rights of members of the Armed Forces to observe the tenets of their respective religions. It is DoD policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on military readiness, unit cohesion, standards or discipline.
  2. The following goals are to be used by the Military Departments in the development of guidance on the exercise of command discretion concerning the accommodation of religious practices. Nothing in these goals or in the implementing rules of the Military Departments (except when expressly provided therein) shall be interpreted as requiring a specific form of accommodation in individual circumstances. a. Worship services, holy days, and Sabbath observance should be accommodated, except when precluded by military necessity.
    b. The Military Departments should include religious belief as one factor for consideration when granting separate rations, and permit commanders to authorize individuals to provide their own supplemental food rations in a field or "at sea" environment to accommodate their religious beliefs.
    c. The Military Departments should consider religious beliefs as a factor for waiver of immunizations, subject to medical risks to the unit and military requirements, such as alert status and deployment potential.
    d. The Military Departments should include relevant materials on religious traditions, practices, and policies in the curricula for command, judge advocate, chaplain, and similar courses and orientations.
    e. The Military Departments should develop a statement advising of DoD policy on individual religious practices and military requirements to applicants for commissioning, enlistment, and reenlistment.
    f. Religious items or articles not visible or otherwise apparent may be worn with the uniform, provided they shall not interfere with the performance of the member's military duties, as discussed in subparagraph C.2.g.(5), below, or interfere with the proper wearing of any authorized article of the uniform.
    g. Under Public Law 100-180, section 508 (reference (c)), members of the Armed Forces may wear visible items of religious apparel while in uniform, except under circumstances in which an item is not neat and conservative or its wearing shall interfere with the performance of the member's military duties.
  3. Under this Directive, "religious apparel" is defined as articles of clothing worn as part of the doctrinal or traditional observance of the religious faith practiced by the member. Hair and grooming practices required or observed by religious groups are not included within the meaning of religious apparel. Jewelry bearing religious inscriptions or otherwise indicating religious affiliation or belief is subject to existing Service uniform regulations just as jewelry that is not of a religious nature.
  4. In the context of the wearing of a military uniform, "neat and conservative" items of religious apparel are those that: (a) Are discreet, tidy, and not dissonant or showy in style, size, design, brightness, or color.
    (b) Do not replace or interfere with the proper wearing of any authorized article of the uniform.
    (c) Are not temporarily or permanently affixed or appended to any authorized article of the uniform.
  5. The standards in subparagraph C.2.g.(2), above, are intended to serve as a basis for determining a member's entitlement under Public Law 100- 180, section 508 (reference (c)), to wear religious apparel with the uniform. For example, unless prohibited by subparagraph C.2.g.(6), below, a Jewish yarmulke may be worn with the uniform whenever a military cap, hat, or other headgear is not prescribed. A yarmulke may also be worn underneath military headgear as long as it does not interfere with the proper wearing, functioning, or appearance of the prescribed headgear.
  6. Exceptions to the standards in subparagraph C.2.g.(2), above, and other special accommodations for members of particular religious groups may be granted by the Military Departments under section D., below.
  7. Whether an item of religious apparel interferes with the performance of the member's military duties depends on the characteristics of the item, the circumstances of its intended wear, and the particular nature of the member's duties. Factors in determining if an item of religious apparel interferes with military duties include, but are not limited to, whether the item may: (a) Impair the safe and effective operation of weapons, military equipment, or machinery.
    (b) Pose a health or safety hazard to the wearer or others.
    (c) Interfere with the wearing or proper functioning of special or protective clothing or equipment (e.g., helmets, flack jackets, flight suits, camouflaged uniforms, gas masks, wet suits, and crash and rescue equipment).
    (d) Otherwise impair the accomplishment of the military mission.
  8. A complete prohibition on the wearing of any visible items of religious apparel may be appropriate under unique circumstances in which the member's duties, the military mission, or the maintenance of discipline require absolute uniformity. For example, members may be prohibited from wearing visible religious apparel while wearing historical or ceremonial uniforms; participating in review formations, parades, honor or color guards, and similar ceremonial details and functions.
  9. The authority to approve the wearing of an item of religious apparel with the uniform, under the guidelines of this paragraph, shall be exercised at the command level specified by each Military Department. Denials of requests to wear religious apparel shall be subject to review at the Service Headquarters level. Final review shall occur within 30 days following the date of initial denial for cases arising in the United States, and within 60 days for all other cases. Exceptions to these deadlines shall be limited to exigent circumstances, such as extended deployment. Service members shall be obliged to comply with orders prohibiting the wearing of questionable items of religious apparel pending review of such orders under regulations issued by the Secretaries of the Military Departments.
  10. h. Notwithstanding paragraphs C.2.f. and g., above, chaplains may wear any required religious apparel or accouterments with the uniform while conducting worship services and during the performance of rites and rituals distinct to their faith groups.
D. PROCEDURES
  1. Under rules prescribed by the Secretary of the Military Department concerned, military commanders should consider the following factors along with any other factors deemed appropriate in determining whether to grant a request for accommodation of religious practices addressed in section C., above: a. The importance of military requirements in terms of individual and unit readiness, health and safety, discipline, morale, and cohesion.
    b. The religious importance of the accommodation to the requester.
    c. The cumulative impact of repeated accommodations of a similar nature.
    d. Alternative means available to meet the requested accommodation.
    e. Previous treatment of the same or similar requests, including treatment of similar requests made for other than religious reasons.
  2. The factors in subsection D.1, above, are intended to promote standard procedure for resolving difficult questions involving accommodation of religious practices. In view of the different mission requirements of each command, individual consideration of specific requests for accommodation is necessary; With the exception of requests involving the wearing of visible items of religious apparel with the uniform, denials of which must be reviewed at the Service Headquarters level, the appropriate level of command for resolution of these issues shall be determined by each of the Military Departments, based on its particular requirements and circumstances.
  3. When requests for accommodation are not in the best interest of the unit and continued tension between the unit's requirements and the individual's religious beliefs is apparent, administrative actions should be considered. These actions may include, but are not limited to, assignment, reassignment, reclassification, or separation. Nothing in this Directive precludes action under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (reference (d)) in appropriate circumstances.
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April 9th, 2010  
usinfantryMOS11c10
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ24
I see, well thanks for the correction. I didn't realize we'd grown so ridiculous. I think anyone that joins the military and then wants an exception to wear and appearance regulations due to religious beliefs should probably be left far behind in the rear with the gear.

But hey, that's just me. I play by big boy rules and I knew the regulations BEFORE I voluntarily signed that contract. A lot of things in my religion conflict with the military, I don't demand the military bend to me and my beliefs.

My opinion only. I'm sure your ego can handle it.

The thing is...... they sort of have to bend to your beliefs.
April 9th, 2010  
PJ24
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by usinfantryMOS11c10
The thing is...... they sort of have to bend to your beliefs.
I disagree, but again, that's MY personal opinion. When I joined the military I didn't get rid of my religion but I have no desire to make it the military bend to my religious beliefs. When I need one and it is convenient for myself and the military, I'll use my Chaplain. Outside of that, I have no desire to make it bend to me.

I think there just needs to be a reason other than religion to not adhere to grooming standards or any standards within the military.

And I will admit, maybe that's because my religion has no restrictions on things like that and I can't understand the actual importance it may have to someone.
April 9th, 2010  
usinfantryMOS11c10
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ24
I disagree, but again, that's MY personal opinion. When I joined the military I didn't get rid of my religion but I have no desire to make it the military bend to my religious beliefs. When I need one and it is convenient for myself and the military, I'll use my Chaplain. Outside of that, I have no desire to make it bend to me.

I think there just needs to be a reason other than religion to not adhere to grooming standards or any standards within the military.

And I will admit, maybe that's because my religion has no restrictions on things like that and I can't understand the actual importance it may have to someone.
There are other reasons

Baldness on top of the head, of course cannot allow you to mend to their standards.

And as far as facial hair goes...... Shaving bumps.
It's mainly for African Americans and people of Semetic Origins.

May I also ask, what your religion is? I bet there are alot of things that apply to this even in your religion.
April 9th, 2010  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ24
I see, well thanks for the correction. I didn't realize we'd grown so ridiculous. I think anyone that joins the military and then wants an exception to wear and appearance regulations due to religious beliefs should probably be left far behind in the rear with the gear.

But hey, that's just me. I play by big boy rules and I knew the regulations BEFORE I voluntarily signed that contract. A lot of things in my religion conflict with the military, I don't demand the military bend to me and my beliefs.

My opinion only. I'm sure your ego can handle it.
10/10

The idea of joining an Armed Service is that you agree to serve, not to be served. If anyone is so religious that they cannot conform, FFS become a sky pilot, and let the troopies that joined to do a job get on with it.
April 9th, 2010  
usinfantryMOS11c10
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
10/10

The idea of joining an Armed Service is that you agree to serve, not to be served. If anyone is so religious that they cannot conform, FFS become a sky pilot, and let the troopies that joined to do a job get on with it.

Did you totally overlook the Oath which I posted? Or perhaps the DOD article? Religion is a human right. If they didn't want us to have that right they wouldn't have put it in those two articles, nor the most important article (The Constitution). Then there really would be no reason to join.

The idea of joining a service comes not from agreement to serve. It comes from the values and liberties in which that service protects.

If our nations military was founded on lets say Keeping guerrilla fighters in some other country at bay, then I of course wouldn't have joined.
I joined for the simple fact of what our constitution stands for, and in respect and payment for the men before me that have served in order to protect what is written in it.

As you can see..... I still haven't given up my duties as a soldier!

The military is there to protect the rights we have and yes you do give up certain rights up enlistment. However nothing can abolish your basic rights described in the bill of rights. It would be unconstitutional. Hence why I think gun control is borderline communism.
April 9th, 2010  
senojekips
 
 
I don't give a flying f*ck for your constitution, or the Oath, I'm more of a common sense type of person myself. You think that the Constitution is inviolable? Try pleading your 4th Amendment Rights to your border security personnel when they stop your vehicle for a search 100 miles from the border, without probable cause.

If you want to play games, stay at home and join some gaming group on the internet, let Servicemen do what Servicemen must. In my day anyone with your attitude would have been labelled a Barrack Room Lawyer and you would have attracted grief like sh!t attracts flies.

And personally I don't think that you'd know "Communism" if it bit you on the butt.
April 9th, 2010  
PJ24
 
 
The thing about joining the military is you agree to give up certain rights in order to uphold the ones you're trying to guarantee. That's just reality. I'm all about rights, and I love my constitution but I don't think requiring one to meet uniform standards violates anyones right to religion. If serving in the military was meant to ensure exactly the same rights civilians have, we wouldn't have the UCMJ.

If my religion dictated I could have a wife and a girlfriend, does that mean the UCMJ shouldn't apply to me? I mean, it is my religion afterall and if you attempted to prosecute me under Art. 134 you would be alienating my constitutional right of freedom of religion.

As for your point about baldness, as long as the length is within regs, it doesn't matter. At worst, one can simply shave his head if he's worried about the balding spot and still be within regs. Facial hair is another matter as well, those that cannot shave often are required to get shaving profiles.

There is also a thing called "relaxed grooming standards," I fall under this quite often. There is a mission essential reason for it. When I return home, I go back to living "just within" regs, but I do live within them.

My religion doesn't have regulations about hair or wardrobe. Maybe that's why I don't get it. You asked my religion, but I don't feel the need to advertise it, it's personal, I will tell you I'm a Christian. What I give up from my religion is done because I don't feel like it places my soul at risk of judgement from my God. It's a compromise I make in order to uphold my chosen career. I don't think I'd have an issue cutting my hair or not wearing specific headdress if it were part of my religion, however. But again, I can only speak from someone that doesn't have those requirements, didn't grow up in that culture, etc.

Anyway, good discussion, but I don't think we're gonna agree.