Gun Control At Work in Australia..

5.56X45mm

Milforum Mac Daddy
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapc....ap/index.html

MELBOURNE, Australia (AP) -- A gunman opened fire on a downtown street during the morning rush hour Monday in Australia's second largest city, killing one man and critically wounding two other people while scattering terrified commuters, police said.

The suspect fled, and police launched a manhunt in the southern city of Melbourne, closing several streets and advising people to stay indoors as tactical officers armed with shotguns fanned out and helicopters joined the search overhead.

Police said the shooting did not appear to be a random act, and that it was believed a woman who was one of the victims knew the gunman.

The other two victims -- including the one who died -- were male bystanders who came to the aid of the woman during an altercation with a man who pulled out a gun, witnesses said.

"A girl came out of a building over the road, she was screaming and a guy had her by the hair," Ross Murchie told Australian Broadcasting Corp.

"She tried to grab hold of a taxi that was going by and the couple of bystanders went over to ask what was happening," Murchie said. "He let go of her hair, pulled out a gun and shot them all."

Inspector Steve Martin said the woman and one of the men who went to assist were rushed to hospital in critical condition with gunshot wounds to their chests. The third victim died at the scene, he said.

The shooting occurred on the corner of Flinders Lane and William Streets in central Melbourne around 8 a.m. Monday (2200 Sunday), sending hundreds of frightened commuters fleeing. A short time later, police said they had recovered a handgun and a jacket believed to have been worn by the attacker, who remained at large.

Prime Minister John Howard declined to comment directly on the shooting because he was not aware of the details, but said he was willing to open discussions on further tightening gun control laws with state leaders, who have responsibility for policing them.

Justice Minister David Johnston said Australian firearms laws already were very tight and that it was likely the gun used in Monday's shooting was obtained illegally. (ya think)

"It is very, very, difficult for a law-abiding citizen to obtain a handgun," Johnston said, adding: "If someone wants to purchase a concealable weapon on the black market they will probably be successful."


Police said the gunman and the female victim may have been involved in a fight at a nightclub about 10 minutes before the shooting.

"It does appear that there was a relationship between the female and the male suspect," said Inspector Glenn Weir said. "Certainly we're not looking that it's a random act, certainly not gang-related. It appears as though it's a domestic-related incident."

________________________________________________________________

This proves once again that otlawing something from the common citizenary will not prevent a criminal from getting said item.

The outlaw of drugs proves it.

The outlaw of alcohol proves it.

Criminals break laws, hence outlawing an item that could possible save a law abiding citizen is stupid. Because all your have done is prevented the law abiding citizenary from having said item.
 
First off, that was pretty funny monty, Ill admit I laughed a bit at that

And id actually really like to see the amount of gun related crimes in Australia as compared to the US, even if it is by percentage of all crimes or whatever. Because, while I dont know for a fact, id suspect that it is lower then in the US.

You cant stop every single derranged person. That is just a fact of life. What you can do is try to prevent most of them from hurting others.
 
Can you give examples of how this is "proven over the ages" because I am prepared to bet that up until the mid 1500s firearms related deaths were very low.
I meant the overall point of how making things illegal doesn't hurt the people who would use them illegally. It just takes away the chance for law-abiding citizens to use them. Not guns specifically, but things like alcohol, and drugs, and any other illegal substance/item. (not to say that drugs should be legalized...just to say making them illegal doesn't make them disappear.)
Just read the bottom of 5.56's post. That's the point I was trying to make. Thanks.
 
So if its too hard to police we should just legalise it and ignore the consequences because there is nothing we can do about it?

One point our illustrious NRA evangelist over looks in his quest to secure the world by handing out guns on street corners is that while it may make some safer (and there is no proof of this) it also makes life much easier for those seeking to get them for crimes. Hell based on 5.56s ideas Baghdad and Mogadishu should be the safest cities on earth as everyone seems to be armed.
 
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Again, what did I say? Not to say that we should legalize drugs, just saying that because we think we control traffic of said contraband doesn't mean we control ALL traffic of it. Same holds true for weapons. Just because we control legal traffic, doesn't mean we control ALL traffic.
 
ok....compare the amount of gun deaths/ crime in australasia....with the numbers for the states



go on



see what numbers you can come up with.


Australia toughened it's gun laws after the port Arthur massacre. NZ did the same after Aramoana. and gun crime in either country is extremely rare...and death resulting from gun crime even lower.


but then again we're not worried about the king of englands tax increases (sorry! cheap shot!)
 
Australia has less people.... so your crime numbers will be less then the USA. You have to look at it this way. How many murders per 100,000 people.
 
Australia has less people.... so your crime numbers will be less then the USA. You have to look at it this way. How many murders per 100,000 people.

How about per 1000 people?

Just did a quick search and here are the figures for 1998-2000, couldn't find anything newer from a reputable source but you are more than welcome to look for yourself.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

USA - 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
Australia - 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
New Zealand - 0.00173482 per 1,000 people

This would indicate that the USAs firearms related murder rate was 10 times that of Australia but if you can find newer figures I am sure we would all like to see them.
 
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Australia has less people.... so your crime numbers will be less then the USA. You have to look at it this way. How many murders per 100,000 people.


ok...do it per capita then


trust me, it's not the population that causes the differences, it's the level of availability of high power weaponry and the licensing (or lack thereof)


and it's not about freedom, or governmental control...it's about responsibility. IMHO licensing prevents a large proportion of loons from getting guns
 
The point still remains that if a criminal wants to get his hands on something, he will break the law to do it...That's why they're considered CRIMINALS in the first place. No matter how strict gun control becomes, no matter what efforts are made to prevent it, the sheer size of the United States prevents the government from policing every single firearm in existence. The government cannot account for every handgun, every rifle, every shotgun ever...It just can't be done. Now, if the United States were a bit smaller...Perhaps we could...Maybe if we were the size of...Texas, with guards on every inch of our border, with the ability to control everything in and out, maybe. Then again, there are always home-made...So, nope, still no good. All gun control laws do is stop those who follow those laws.
 
Nah, if we were the size of Texas we'd have a commensurately lower population as well, don't you think?

If we have more killings in America, I'd wager it's because of our culture, not our firearms.
 
I think that Henderson is having an issue understanding the diffrent between banning all guns and gun control. Gun Control is the means of - get this- controlling the amount of guns available. That is not the same as banning all guns. His point about criminals still being able to get guns is true, but really makes no diffrence. A determined criminal could, theoretically, break into the Pentagon and steal classified documents. Does that mean that the pentagon needs more security? Not neccessarily. Armed criminals will always cause issues. The fact that they can arm themselves is never going to end. The only thing we can do is limit the amount of weapons they can get through whatever means we have. That is where gun "Control" comes into play. We arent saying ban all guns, we are saying make sure the ones we can control are givin to responsible people.
 
I'm sure that culture has a lot to do with it.

One thing that I have noticed in Australia, is that as American culture has become better known here, our population's acceptance of poor firearms handling and usage has skyrocketed.

To me, and this is merely a personal observation, the USA seems to be very much against moving too far away from the mentality of the wild west. Movies since 1965-70 haven't helped either, with their steady progression to ever greater levels of violence and gore, with excessive glorification of the cult of the gun.

Yeah,.... I know, but that's not real. No, it's not, but it is still where some of our more easily led idiots get their ideas from. Remember the upsurge in copycat crimes after such films as "Bonnie and Clyde"?

If movies and games etc., stopped glorifying violence and guns we may have a chance to return to some sanity, but it would take a generation.

I'm dead against Gun Control as it is presently enforced in Australia, it only inconveniences the honest citizen.

*exasperated sigh* My point was that because of America's size and population, it makes policing gun control impossible...
Bullsh1t! More population = more police and enforcers. The ratio is the same. As for physical size, Australia is 7/8 the size of the USA and it doesn't effect us.
 
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I'm sure that culture has a lot to do with it.

One thing that I have noticed in Australia, is that as American culture has become better known here, our population's acceptance of poor firearms handling and usage has skyrocketed.

To me, and this is merely a personal observation, the USA seems to be very much against moving too far away from the mentality of the wild west. Movies since 1965-70 haven't helped either, with their steady progression to ever greater levels of violence and gore, with excessive glorification of the cult of the gun.

Yeah,.... I know, but that's not real. No, it's not, but it is still where some of our more easily led idiots get their ideas from. Remember the upsurge in copycat crimes after such films as "Bonnie and Clyde"?

If movies and games etc., stopped glorifying violence and guns we may have a chance to return to some sanity, but it would take a generation.

I'm dead against Gun Control as it is presently enforced in Australia, it only inconveniences the honest citizen.

Bullsh1t! More population = more police and enforcers. The ratio is the same. As for physical size, Australia is 7/8 the size of the USA and it doesn't effect us.


You know what's funny in the United States of America?... well there are many funny things here; like one can find that they are old enough to Die in Iraq while wearing a United States Military Uniform, fighting in a War, but that same person would not be old enough to drink in the United States of America if they are under 21 years old.

But, now about Guns and Gun Safety...... I think it is funny that one needs a Drivers License to operate a Motor Vehicle in the United States of America, yet one just walks in and buys a Firearm and the Ammo, and that's it.

There is no Test, there is no Studying, there is nothing like that.

Gun Safety is not something which is taught in Public Schools here, well unless the Gun is another word for the *****, and the Ammo is Sperm.... then it is taught, and taught quite often in some places around the Nation.

I believe since the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is in the Constitution that there needs to be Mandatory Training in School, like there are Social Studies and POD classes in School to at least help those in School to get ready for the monumental task of voting..... I believe the Schools should teach how to safely bear Arms, and, if one cannot pass, one does not get out of School, since the Right to Keep and Bear is a Constitutionally Protected Right.
If one is still in School at 18, and has not passed the Course, then one would not be granted said Right until they do pass the Course, and out of School.
Many are out of School at 17 though, and those who will be 18 and still in School should plan on taking the Courses early and often, to get them out of the way, just in case they need extra work on Gun Safety to get out of School.

Of course, I also believe that all those who wish to stay Citizens of the United States of America, and are Physically and Mentally able, should be Drafted into the Military and trained up as soon as they are out of High School.... and put into the Reserves and National Guard.
Firearm Safety learned while in School will come in handy in the Military.

And, I believe that anyone old enough to be Deployed into a Combat Zone should be old enough to Legally purchase and consume an Alcoholic Beverage in the United States of America.
 
I think that Henderson is having an issue understanding the diffrent between banning all guns and gun control. Gun Control is the means of - get this- controlling the amount of guns available. That is not the same as banning all guns. His point about criminals still being able to get guns is true, but really makes no diffrence. A determined criminal could, theoretically, break into the Pentagon and steal classified documents. Does that mean that the pentagon needs more security? Not neccessarily. Armed criminals will always cause issues. The fact that they can arm themselves is never going to end. The only thing we can do is limit the amount of weapons they can get through whatever means we have. That is where gun "Control" comes into play. We arent saying ban all guns, we are saying make sure the ones we can control are givin to responsible people.
Ok, say we do make sure the ones we control are given to responsible people...What about the ones we CAN'T? The ones that are given to the Cho Seung-Hui's and the Thomas Hamilton's and the Evan Ramsey's and the Eric Harris's and the Dylan Klebold's...What about them?


Bottom line...There is no possible way to get rid of guns given to crazy people. At all. Impossible feat. Therefore, gun control only hurts those who follow it.
 
Gator I disagree with ya on a few points there. Gun education should only be a requirement if you're - get this - actually going to buy a firearm. And the draft is a desperate measure, everyone knows draftees are far lower quality soldiers than volunteers. Maybe if they are put to work in the States or in a support role mandatory service would be useful, but not for fighting.
 
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