3rd SS Division Totenkopf. They did some terrible things but a great fighting division of WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Division_Totenkopf

Originally Posted by errol

3rd SS Division Totenkopf. They did some terrible things but a great fighting division of WW2.

No more terrible than many regular German, Soviet and even Western Allied armies on occasion did.

1st MARDIV, Guadalcanal, Suicide Creek, Battle of Peleliu, Inchon, Seoul, Chosin......

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

No more terrible than many regular German, Soviet and even Western Allied armies on occasion did.

True, it has always interested me how people forget how bad the Soviets and regular forces were. I think the western allies could generally be considered and fairly so to be the good guys - although nothing can be seen in black and white.

Originally Posted by Easy-8

True, it has always interested me how people forget how bad the Soviets and regular forces were. I think the western allies could generally be considered and fairly so to be the good guys - although nothing can be seen in black and white.

you must also look at it this way, many russians saw their homes and entire cities leveled by the germans, and their mother and sisters raped and their fathers sent to death camps. So they were acting like that because the germans did it to them, but i not saying they were right to do that.

Originally Posted by Bacara

you must also look at it this way, many russians saw their homes and entire cities leveled by the germans, and their mother and sisters raped and their fathers sent to death camps. So they were acting like that because the germans did it to them, but i saying they were right to do that.

Well the Soviets commited a ton of nasty crimes against people other than Germans so that kinda undermines your whole arguement.

Yes Doppleganger,they certainly weren't on their own as far as war crimes were concerned.They were certainly fanatical in their fighting and were always used to plug holes and launch "rescue" attacks. I read a book about them called "Deaths Head". It was a real eye opener.

Totenkopf War Crimes
The division's original cadre was drawn from the SS-Totenkopfverbände (concentration camp guards), as opposed to the other Germanic SS Divisions which were formed from the SS-Verfügungstruppe.
The members of this unit were trained and led by Nazi commanders such as Theodor Eicke, Max Simon and Helmut Becker. Eicke instilled ruthlessness as a necessity in his men, and during the original training at Dachau, the troops commonly spent time guarding inmates at the nearby concentration camp. The three SS-TV Standartes which were to form the Totenkopf division saw action in Poland, where some say its soldiers were involved in war crimes[citation needed].

Civilians killed on the spot after their capture during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. The Training and Replacement Battalion of the 3rd SS Division was involved in the suppression of the 1943 Uprising.


The only documented example of war crimes against the division came under Friedrich Jeckeln where, several days into the Fall Gelb campaign, Totenkopf men committed a war crime. 14./III.Bat/Totenkopf Infanterie Regiment-2 executed 97 British troops of the Norfolk Regiment at the town of Le Paradis. The commander, SS-Obersturmführer Fritz Knöchlein (Hauptsturmführer at the time of the massacre), had accused the Norfolk Regiment of using dum-dum ammunition and therefore being in violation of the Hague Convention of 1899. However, this allegation seems unlikely because all small arms ammunition used by British and German armed forces during the conflict was fully metal jacketed. Fully metal jacketed bullets are, though highly effective and deadly, legal according to international laws. After the war, Knöchlein himself was found guilty of war crimes and was hanged.
The Jürgen Stroop Report of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising lists the "Training and Replacement Battalion" of the 3rd SS as involved in the suppression of the uprising of April-May 1943. See [3]
However, by the end of 1942 the division had experienced virtually a complete turnover in personnel. The high casualty rates meant by late 1943 virtually none of the original cadre were left. However, while the division's record in the brutal Eastern Front fighting to follow is quite clean, its reputation lingered. In 1945 the members of the division were turned over by the Americans to the Soviets after their surrender at Linz. This implied a virtual death sentence: its members were sent to their deaths in camps of the Gulag with extreme hard living conditions, or instantly shot without trial. Only few of them surviv

The "Das Reich' Division were a bloody good outfit too.

Originally Posted by errol

Yes Doppleganger,they certainly weren't on their own as far as war crimes were concerned.They were certainly fanatical in their fighting and were always used to plug holes and launch "rescue" attacks. I read a book about them called "Deaths Head". It was a real eye opener.

Totenkopf War Crimes
The division's original cadre was drawn from the SS-Totenkopfverbände (concentration camp guards), as opposed to the other Germanic SS Divisions which were formed from the SS-Verfügungstruppe.
The members of this unit were trained and led by Nazi commanders such as Theodor Eicke, Max Simon and Helmut Becker. Eicke instilled ruthlessness as a necessity in his men, and during the original training at Dachau, the troops commonly spent time guarding inmates at the nearby concentration camp. The three SS-TV Standartes which were to form the Totenkopf division saw action in Poland, where some say its soldiers were involved in war crimes[citation needed].

Civilians killed on the spot after their capture during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. The Training and Replacement Battalion of the 3rd SS Division was involved in the suppression of the 1943 Uprising.


The only documented example of war crimes against the division came under Friedrich Jeckeln where, several days into the Fall Gelb campaign, Totenkopf men committed a war crime. 14./III.Bat/Totenkopf Infanterie Regiment-2 executed 97 British troops of the Norfolk Regiment at the town of Le Paradis. The commander, SS-Obersturmführer Fritz Knöchlein (Hauptsturmführer at the time of the massacre), had accused the Norfolk Regiment of using dum-dum ammunition and therefore being in violation of the Hague Convention of 1899. However, this allegation seems unlikely because all small arms ammunition used by British and German armed forces during the conflict was fully metal jacketed. Fully metal jacketed bullets are, though highly effective and deadly, legal according to international laws. After the war, Knöchlein himself was found guilty of war crimes and was hanged.
The Jürgen Stroop Report of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising lists the "Training and Replacement Battalion" of the 3rd SS as involved in the suppression of the uprising of April-May 1943. See [3]
However, by the end of 1942 the division had experienced virtually a complete turnover in personnel. The high casualty rates meant by late 1943 virtually none of the original cadre were left. However, while the division's record in the brutal Eastern Front fighting to follow is quite clean, its reputation lingered. In 1945 the members of the division were turned over by the Americans to the Soviets after their surrender at Linz. This implied a virtual death sentence: its members were sent to their deaths in camps of the Gulag with extreme hard living conditions, or instantly shot without trial. Only few of them surviv

The Totenkopf were just fancy concentration camp guards. And Theodor Eike was a stupid anti-semitic thug. There were better SS units. Leibstandarte, Hitlerjugend, Viking, Hohenstauffen, Frundsberg and Gotz Von Berlichingen to name a few. Not every Waffen SS commander or officer was a fanatical Nazi. Paul Hausser and Wilhelm Bittrich were honorable gentlemen, who would never have dreamt of commiting war crimes.

Originally Posted by Papashah41

The Totenkopf were just fancy concentration camp guards. There were better SS units. Leibstandarte, Hitlerjugend, Viking, Hohenstauffen, Frundsberg and Gotz Von Berlichingen to name a few. Not every Waffen SS commander or officer was a fanatical Nazi. Paul Hausser and Wilhelm Bittrich were honorable gentlemen, who would never have dreamt of commiting war crimes.

The best Waffen SS Divisions were Liebstandarte and Das Reich, along with Totenkopf. In other words the 3 divisions that made up the II SS Panzer Korps. Up until mid 1944 they could be considered as elite status divisions and were well regarded by German commanders as 'fire brigade' formations. In other words, formations that could be reliably used to plug holes and prevent Soviet breakthroughs.

The Totenkopf were certainly not just fancy concentration camp guards. As part of II SS Panzer Korps they formed the main offensive wedge of 4th Panzerarmee at Kursk, and along with the other two SS divisions achieved the furthest penetration of any German formation. This was mainly due to the tactics of Hausser but make no mistake, Totenkopf in 1943 were as good as any other Panzer Division in the German Army and better than a good many of them.

Many of the other Waffen SS units you mentioned were formed towards the end of the 3rd Reich and were not of the same quality as the big 3. Hitlerjugend for example was formed by transferring a core of veteran NCO's from Liebstandarte to look after largely green troops, most of them Hitler Youth, hence the name. The Hitlerjugend did actually fight very well, but it was no elite formation.