Greatest Battlefield Commander of the Allies in World War II

[godofthunder9010]

Redoing the topic ... there were too many people missing for the first thread to count. Added several options that should have been in the first thread. In the end, I decided not to throw Ike out for the simple reason that his command had tremendous influence on the Battlefield, depending upon your point of view.

Can I get a Mod to lock the first thread please?

 

[Charge 7]

Good list. Small quibble: Zhukov and Konev were not titled "Field Marshall" but rather "Marshall of the Soviet Union". A bit of a mouthful though and you probably retitled them for brevity.

 

[godofthunder9010]

Good list. Small quibble: Zhukov and Konev were not titled "Field Marshall" but rather "Marshall of the Soviet Union". A bit of a mouthful though and you probably retitled them for brevity.

Precisely why I left it out. The same thing is true of several others. Monty, Ike, MacArthur and LeClerc were all topmost for their respective nations and have a long annoying title attached to it. Also, Konev and Zukov did not hold that title simultaneously because it denoted "foremost of all Field Marshalls". I like my way. Its simpler.

 

[Doppleganger]

Good list. Small quibble: Zhukov and Konev were not titled "Field Marshall" but rather "Marshall of the Soviet Union". A bit of a mouthful though and you probably retitled them for brevity.

Precisely why I left it out. The same thing is true of several others. Monty, Ike, MacArthur and LeClerc were all topmost for their respective nations and have a long annoying title attached to it. Also, Konev and Zukov did not hold that title simultaneously because it denoted "foremost of all Field Marshalls". I like my way. Its simpler.

Vatutin was a Marshall too, while we're on the subject.

 

[godofthunder9010]

Vatutin was a Marshall too, while we're on the subject.

I noted that in the other thread, but then I check one of the most reliable sources I know and found this:
http://www.generals.dk/nation/Soviet_Union/Vat.html
Even reliable sources are wrong sometimes, so just link the info and my data source shall be flogged, beaten and whipped.

I feel a lot better with more Soviet names up there. They deserve more credit that they ever get.

 

[Doppleganger]

Vatutin was a Marshall too, while we're on the subject.

I noted that in the other thread, but then I check one of the most reliable sources I know and found this:
http://www.generals.dk/nation/Soviet_Union/Vat.html
Even reliable sources are wrong sometimes, so just link the info and my data source shall be flogged, beaten and whipped.

I feel a lot better with more Soviet names up there. They deserve more credit that they ever get.

You know I can give you several links that state he was a Marshall and several more that state he was a General. I suspect that many links/sources refer to him as Lt General in 1942 which he definately was at that point in time. Certainly, as a commander in charge of a Front he probably should have been the rank of Marshall if he wasn't. Konev & Zhukov were both Marshalls and commanded similar size forces. But to be honest it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

 

[Charge 7]

"I feel a lot better with more Soviet names up there. They deserve more credit that they ever get."

Unfortunately, that was the Soviets own doing. Granted the Cold War didn't make us rush to honor them, however, we had little idea of the complete picture of Russian operations prior to the 1970s when the Soviets made more information public and even then didn't get it all until the fall of the Soviet Union in the 1990s.

 

[godofthunder9010]

You know I can give you several links that state he was a Marshall and several more that state he was a General. I suspect that many links/sources refer to him as Lt General in 1942 which he definately was at that point in time. Certainly, as a commander in charge of a Front he probably should have been the rank of Marshall if he wasn't. Konev & Zhukov were both Marshalls and commanded similar size forces. But to be honest it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

I wonder if it was one of those promotions that got neglected for unknown reasons and was perhaps granted post-humously? If anyone can shed some more light on the matter, it would be appreciated. I have nothing whatsoever against learning something new.

Guderian deserved the rank of Field Marshall many times over, but somehow never got it. A man of such distiction merits the rank being pushed on him even if he objects. Something similar happend to Vatutin perhaps?

 

[Charge 7]

Guderian didn't make field marshall because he was the only German general who had the jeuvos to tell Hitler he was wrong to his face. It was just that simple. Certainly he deserved the rank - and many times over the likes of some who did get the rank like Keitel for example.

 

[Doppleganger]

Guderian didn't make field marshall because he was the only German general who had the jeuvos to tell Hitler he was wrong to his face. It was just that simple. Certainly he deserved the rank - and many times over the likes of some who did get the rank like Keitel for example.

He wasn't the only German general to argue with Hitler but he was certainly the most obstinate. Hitler was incensed and both disappointed in Guderian in Dec 1941 when the latter chose to retreat his 2nd Panzer Army in the face of Hitler's 'stand or die' orders. That cost him his Army command and almost certainly cost him a promotion to Generalfeldmarschall. When he came back in 1943 he actually had more power than most Generalfeldmarschalls ever had as Inspector General of Panzertruppen. Plus he became Chief of Staff in 1944 although by this time much of the power was with Hitler, as it had been since 1942. So in a sense he did achieve the ranks he deserved although personally I would have loved to see what he and Manstein could have achieved had they been allowed to call the shots.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I'm really not sure who to vote for - I need more time to think.

 

[godofthunder9010]

Precisely why I wonder if Vatutin had something similar happen to him as Guderian.

 

[Doppleganger]

Precisely why I wonder if Vatutin had something similar happen to him as Guderian.

Hmm I don't believe so. Stalin's relationships with his generals were much better than Hitler's were with his. Vatutin died in 1944 as well which may have had something to do with it, although I still suspect that he was a full Marshall when he died.

 

[Charge 7]

I doubt Zhukov would agree with that. Stalin took great pains to denigrate his accomplishments.

 

[Ashes]

Do you think Vasilevski should get a mention for his campaign against the Japanese Manchurian army in operation August Storm, apart from his great efforts against the Germans.

The Manchurian campaign was an lightning Blitzkrieg, probably the biggest land battle against the Japanese.

1,500,0000 Russians against 1 million Japanese.

The astonishing advance by the Soviets on the Trans-baikal front in Manchuria on the 8/8'45 by the 6th Guards tank army, and the 17th, 39th, and 53rd army, with 826 tanks,193 assault guns and 6489 other vehicles, under Malinovsky, advanced 560 miles through the mountains to the central plains in 11 days.

Eventually capturing Mudkin and Port Arthur on the 24/8'45, a total of over 700 miles in 16 days.
Not a bad advance.

And Slim is underrated to a large degree.

 

[godofthunder9010]

Provide a link or two, it might help. I don't know enough about it all.

 

[Farseer]

This is a decision between Patton, Konev and Zhukov. Even I think that it was both Zhukov and Konev who saved Russia, I have to choose Patton.
Patton was only allied commanders who could have had even match against best German commanders with both sides having about equal forces. Zhukov is remembered only because he was in right place in right time, and I have doubts about his position in victory of Stalingrad. His massattacking tactic was only possible because Russians had manpower to be sacrificed. Konev was better strategist, and I think that he would have captured Berlin before Zhukov if he would have been given a chance.

However, not even single allied commander can achieve position with best German military leaders.

EDIT: oops, little mistake

 

[Doppleganger]

This is a decision between Patton, Konev and Zhukov. Even I think that it was both Zhukov and Konev who saved Russia, I have to choose Patton.
Patton was only allied commanders who could have had even match against best German commanders with both sides having about equal forces. Zhukov is remembered only because he was in right place in right time, and I have doubts about his position in victory of Stalingrad. His massattacking tactic was only possible because Russians had manpower to be sacrificed. Konev was better strategist, and I think that he would have captured Berlin before Konev if he would have been given a chance.

However, not even single allied commander can achieve position with best German military leaders.

Once again I agree - Zhukov was overrated and Konev, who most people have never heard of, gets almost no recognition outside Russia whatsoever.

 

[alex123]

field marshall slim - great leader - sickeningly underated

 

[Charge 7]

I agree Bill Slim was a great commander who deserved alot more credit than he got. Many think it was due to his having been from the Indian Army days (Indian Army officers were looked on as second rate by many of the British regulars at the time).

Did he eventually make field marshal? I only recall him being titled as a general.

 

[alex123]

ye he did - although you did make me question my knowledge for a second -

http://www.burmastar.org.uk/slim.htm