Global Cooling, Global Warming, Acid Rain, what is next?

Donkey

Donkey

Active member
I found this article very interesting
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm


I would just like to quote this one piece for right now
In another instance, I was accused by Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki of being paid by oil companies. That is a lie. Apparently he thinks if the fossil fuel companies pay you have an agenda. So if Greenpeace, Sierra Club or governments pay there is no agenda and only truth and enlightenment?
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A very interesting article. Time to start digging and see what else I can find about this. After reading it I remembered as a kid being told another Ice Age was coming. I was 9-10 years old and remember reading endlessly about mammoths and other items of interest to prepare for what the world was going to be like when I was grown.

Personally I do hope the seas rise but only if people are not allowed to evacuate as the bulk of them are in coastal cities and most people are not worth saving in my humble anti-social opinion... and my family and in laws are both living up in the mountains of their respective countries. :)
 
next,I know it.
World poverty and War and war for desire.
Nothing new.
Anyway,reducing oil demand may reduce Islam terrorist.
 
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The bottom line is yes the climate is changing, guess what it has been changing for millions of years!

Are humans at fault? Are dinosaurs at fault? Are Volcanoes at fault?

Most evidence (real evidence, not stuff produced by scientists that study grasshoppers and got paid to say this and that) points in the direction of it not being our fault.

As for the reduction of oil, we already see what is the effect of us trying to use more ethanol and the price of corn going up. Which has def. pissed off a few countries (cough cough Mexico). But environmentalists (the wacko kind) don't think about these types of ramifications nor do politicians and then the news media just slams it down Joe Schmo publics throat and we now have a bunch of improperly informed people running around thinking they are saving or ending the world....
 
Most evidence (real evidence, not stuff produced by scientists that study grasshoppers and got paid to say this and that) points in the direction of it not being our fault.
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I thought evidence is what scientists work on. They are subject to scrutiny using objective evidence. Other 'professions' such as politicians and business people have the luxury of rhetoric, fantasy, subjectivity and scaremongering and are paid off accordingly. Oh if we place emission limits the economy will collapse. So what? that's what's causing the problem, too many people trying to produce more than they could possibly consume and certainly enjoy and working themselves into an early grave in the process.

With regard to if humans are causing it, it's a bit of a no brainier. The temperature hasn't stayed relatively constant for the best part of a 1000 years then suddenly gone up in the last 50-100 because of a coincidence. The only thing which can cause such a sudden change (in the absence of a massive increase in volcanic activity or asteroid strikes etc) is human activity.



I think it may be because most people don't understand the scientific method which Thomas Kuhn so skilfully and briefly set out in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." A scientist makes certain assumptions and then produces a theory which is only as valid as the assumptions.
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Perhaps he hasn't read another great scientific philosopher, Karl Popper who claimed that science progresses via criticism & refutation. Global warming has been subject to more of this than any theory in history

The theory of Global Warming assumes that CO2 is an atmospheric greenhouse gas and as it increases temperatures rise. It was then theorized that since humans were producing more CO2 than before, the temperature would inevitably rise.
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There are no assumptions about CO2 being a greenhouse gas, it is, along with methane, N20 and O3. It is inherent in their ability to absorb and radiate heat at different wavelengths. The theory is simple and beyond any doubt. The only question is how much, how fast and how long will it take?
 
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Perseus...

No brainer you are trying to tell me that a thousand year sample is a no brainer that it is humans fault when a planet has been changing climates for millions of years...Or do you believe that the planet has only existed for 10,000 years????

Start looking at the "medieval warm period" the predecessor to the "little ice age"

And there is sooooooooooooo many more factors involved then "greenhouse" gases...Especialy just CO2 (think volcanoes on that too) a more important cause of current conditions could be related to the past use of CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons)....Remember these gases will stay in the upper atmosphere for like 30+ years....

I wonder if the fact the days have gotten longer and the years shorter in the past few thousand years has anything to do with it either...Perhaps a correlation with the change of earths orbit being affected by the moon...hmm maybe we should be blaming the moon...I know let's blow it up.....hahah no but keep reading....

You look at this with blinders on and you should try and allow your BS light to come on more often...

Please....

-edit
When I have more free time I will give you a plethora of information to exam...don't worry ;)

And I sure hope you weren't trying to assume I was some non-scientific type...for you would be sorely mistaken....

Start here
http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land/global/climchng.html
 
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Ultimately the climate was going to change one way or another, it is going up now because it was going down for the previous 500 years. "The Little Ice Age" as it is being called now had a huge impact on Western history, it was part of the reasons the Vikings swept down from the north, it was part of the reason that the plague was so terrible and wiped out so many, it was a part of every day life all across the world and with the exception of those killed by the plague its effects were relatively minor. HOWEVER, human waste is definitely a very powerful contributor to the current trend, if 90% of all scientists are telling you something you need to sit up and listen because odds are they know what they are talking about. If 90% of the scientists who study this issue say that man is having a massive effect we have to listen. I do believe that global warming is an issue, but it is a slow growing, slow moving, slow dying issue two or three years of delay on the part of the United States will not have that much of an effect in the long run. Right now the US has not necessarilly bigger but more pressing issues, we need to come up with a viable plan to get our troops out of Iraq and leave Iraq with a stable democracy, we also need to fix our southern and northern borders, then we should start working on global warming. The other two should be solvable within a couple years, the latter one is something for which a couple years is meaningless. But another important note is that nations such as China and India should not be given a free hand to polute as they will just because they have a "developing nation" status. There are over two billion people in those two countries, even the smallest change there will send shockwaves around the world.
 
Damien435 said:
Ultimately the climate was going to change one way or another, it is going up now because it was going down for the previous 500 years. "The Little Ice Age" as it is being called now had a huge impact on Western history, it was part of the reasons the Vikings swept down from the north, it was part of the reason that the plague was so terrible and wiped out so many, it was a part of every day life all across the world and with the exception of those killed by the plague its effects were relatively minor. HOWEVER, human waste is definitely a very powerful contributor to the current trend, if 90% of all scientists are telling you something you need to sit up and listen because odds are they know what they are talking about. If 90% of the scientists who study this issue say that man is having a massive effect we have to listen. I do believe that global warming is an issue, but it is a slow growing, slow moving, slow dying issue two or three years of delay on the part of the United States will not have that much of an effect in the long run. Right now the US has not necessarilly bigger but more pressing issues, we need to come up with a viable plan to get our troops out of Iraq and leave Iraq with a stable democracy, we also need to fix our southern and northern borders, then we should start working on global warming. The other two should be solvable within a couple years, the latter one is something for which a couple years is meaningless. But another important note is that nations such as China and India should not be given a free hand to polute as they will just because they have a "developing nation" status. There are over two billion people in those two countries, even the smallest change there will send shockwaves around the world.
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Show me this 90% statistic....

Even NASA says that one could not be certian with the evidence given that humans are a factor....

Think of the millions of years this planet has supposedly existed....And then think that the climate has been exactly the same...riiight

Furthermore have a look at this http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land/global/pollen.html This depicts 18,000 years of plant distribution in North America...Now I'm not saying we all go out an pollute that is obviously dumb...Let's also not forget that China has had far more serious "environmental accidents" in the past few years then in the US...

Every true scientific document (not main stream news media garbage) has stated that we can not guarantee HUMAN INTERACTION is the true cause of our current climate change...If anything it may not be our pollution but our allowing of the deforestation of the rain forest which is causing the rise in CO2 emissions since the rain forest along with the ocean is a HUGE filter of this gas....

-edit

A nice little animation created by The Illinois State Museum which shows the retreat of ice in North America in past 18,000 years, remember that the last glaciation was 20,000 years ago....

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/images/laurentide.mpg
(Note: "kya" means Thousand Years Ago)

And I really think this should make everyone ponder a little bit and play some devils advocate

Complications - for those who like such things

The situation is not simple since there are other factors involved. For example, water vapor is a powerful greenhouse gas. You might think that if it is warmer the ocean would evaporate more, putting more vapor into the air, which would make it still warmer. However, a warmer and moister climate might make more plants grow, and these tend to remove carbon dioxide. Moreover, if the water vapor condenses into clouds (which are not vapor but liquid water drops of ice crystals) the white clouds reflect sunlight back into space (an effect called albedo) before it can warm the Earth. You can see that the Earth's atmosphere is part of a complicated system.
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Source: http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land/global/greenhou.html

An interesting article again from NASA but this time the Jet Propulsion Laboratory about the effects of earthquakes on the earth
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2005-009

This again like the moon changes our orbit, tilt, and rotational speed all which would affect our exposure to the sun thus being another piece in the puzzle that makes earth's climate work and change.....

Again remind me why this is a "no brainer"...hehehe...
Whose ready for the ride down the rabbit hole :cheers:
 
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The climate models take account of many factors, including solar activity, earth orientation etc.

However, all this analysis is really unnecessary. Let's say the graph I posted above was one of the water level next to your house. Would you not invest in precautions to avoid flooding? Same thing. Problem is that there are several properties around and everyone has to dam or invest to prevent it. One big dissenter, whether it be India, China or the US messes it up for everyone.
 
perseus said:
The climate models take account of many factors, including solar activity, earth orientation etc.

However, all this analysis is really unnecessary. Let's say the graph I posted above was one of the water level next to your house. Would you not invest in precautions to avoid flooding? Same thing. Problem is that there are several properties around and everyone has to dam or invest to prevent it. One big dissenter, whether it be India, China or the US messes it up for everyone.
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Climate models TRY to take this all into account but last time I checked we still couldn't even predict earthquakes...We have no idea how much magma is in the earth and so forth...

But you are still bent on humans being soooooooo all mighty that we have the power to change the earth....

You seem to have completely ignored everything I posted and simply put this analysis is useless, because you have no idea what you are talking about and believe anything that the television tells you.

Question do you know what could happen if the magnetic poles disappeared??? We all know they move and have flipped over the existence of earth...You can not model this and they could just disappear thus causing a HUGE problem...like NASA said our earth is a very complex thing....

We are not even sure that the amount of CO2 has caused the temperature to rise or the temperature rising because of other astronomical factors has caused the CO2 to rise...

Finally do you know that little graph you posted is stealing bandwidth? which is against the rules here and is just rude and possibly illegal... ;) But that graph is itself useless and made to show you only the past thousand years for a reason...Look at the graphs on the NASA Climate Change site I posted you will see that the temperatures we are experiencing now are similar to what happened before the "little ice age"......And the fact that we are still melting form the last glaciation 20,000 years ago and that we have modeled glaciations to occur every 100,000 years.... Speaking of flood maps have you ever heard of 100 year rains, 50 year rains, etc.???

Im all about precautions I design systems for precautions however I am also all about NOT WASTING
 
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Being serious

Whats next? A general world fund to economically aid the starving Middle East, 20 years after the global oil market was killed by a combination of Fuel cell tech/low oil reserves.
 
Donkey said:
This may actually have some value to it.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/130207globalwarming.htm

Take a read and hop on down the rabbit hole...

But hey you can believe crap if you want too it was a free world....
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Out of interest do you believe man has had no impact on the environment?

On the whole I completely agree with the argument that global warming is a natural cyclic phenomenon but I also believe that man's actions have increased the extremes to which that cyclic pattern now reaches.
 
I agree with Monty on this one, we've been throwing so many chemicals into the air and water for so long it can't not have an effect on the environment. I think the thought that we can radically alter the environment with anything short of a nuclear exchange between the US and Russia is absurd, but I do believe that given a hundred years of reckless abandon we can slowly build up our impact till the point where we can no longer notice.

Look what we did to the O-Zone and loook what we have done since.
 
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