This Gitmo Bullshit

S

silent driller

Active member
It's probably in some other forum, but I think this is political so I'm putting mine here. What the **** is the liberal left trying to do here with this Gitmo distraction? All this :cen: about us big bad Americans mistreating some terrorist sand creature by not letting him take a piss and not having the room at just the right temperature and making him listen to rap music as forms of torture? WOW. Big ****ing deal! Nevermind the fact that this guy and his cohorts wouldn't hesitate to cut off heads off civilian contractors or drag thier freshly burned bodies and hang them from a bridge. Nevermind all the IED's he might have set up or helped to set up. Nevermind the fact that he might be the 20th hijacker. And nevermind the fact that he may have information on the world's most wanted terrorist. BUT GOD FORBID WE DENY POOR LITTLE TERRORIST MAN A CHANCE TO GO PEE PEE! People need to grow the **** up and quit whining about Gitmo. Come off it, guys.
 
I found it interesting that Time magazine listed among the "tortures" that the 20th hijacker, Mohammed al-Qahtani, received was that he was shown a bunch of banana rats and told that he was "lower than them" which "made him cry". Seems that guy at least is a (meow).
 
"may" "would" "might"... innocent till proven guilty mate, its part and parcel of the law of the land. The military lawyers themselves have filed suit as it is not possible for these defendant/prisoners to get a fair trial. There are clear violations of international law, US law and the Geneva Convention occuring in Camp Delta. If you want to santion this behaviour and withdraw from civilized society and sink down to the level of child killer... remember that you reap what you sow. And in the end it is the grunt who followed the orders that will pay the price for the folly of the politician, be he general or president.
 
Where did he say american soldiers were child killers? He said that if the behaviour was sanctioned you would be dropping to the level of a child killer. Not that the soldiers were child killers.
I feel that if we allow ourselves to drop to the level where we abuse prisoners and still claim that we are civilised then we are no better than those inside.
 
Re: This Gitmo bullsh*t

silent driller said:
It's probably in some other forum, but I think this is political so I'm putting mine here. What the f**k is the liberal left trying to do here with this Gitmo distraction? All this :cen: about us big bad Americans mistreating some terrorist sand creature by not letting him take a piss and not having the room at just the right temperature and making him listen to rap music as forms of torture?
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I think you are being somewhat misleading here by under playing the treatment as mild perhaps a look at the source of of the information you are quoting may help

Senator Richard Durbin refers to:

When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here [at Guantanamo Bay]--I almost hesitate to put them in the [Congressional] Record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:

"On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor."

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.
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WOW. Big f***ing deal! Nevermind the fact that this guy and his cohorts wouldn't hesitate to cut off heads off civilian contractors or drag thier freshly burned bodies and hang them from a bridge. Nevermind all the IED's he might have set up or helped to set up. Nevermind the fact that he might be the 20th hijacker.
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I will answer this using a quote from the same source because I think its a rather perceptive statement...

Military sources, according to the media, indicate that many detainees have no connection to al-Qaida or the Taliban and were sent to Guantanamo over the objections of intelligence personnel who recommended their release. One military officer said: "We're basically condemning these guys to a long-term imprisonment. If they weren't terrorists before, they certainly could be now."
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Now before you all go off on the "liberal" bandwagon I am happy to say that I dont care what you do with terrorists, take them out and shoot them , pluck their finger nails out one by one or dress them as children and lock them in a room with Michael Jackson for all I care but first convict them of terrorism as the problem many people have with Guantanamo is not that the place exists so much as it is about holding them indefinately not as POWs and not as criminals with charges. But just seemingly holding them forever in a state of limbo where you get to mistreat them.

Oh and the source I quoted from
http://durbin.senate.gov/gitmo.cfm
 
bulldogg said:
"may" "would" "might"... innocent till proven guilty mate, its part and parcel of the law of the land. The military lawyers themselves have filed suit as it is not possible for these defendant/prisoners to get a fair trial. There are clear violations of international law, US law and the Geneva Convention occuring in Camp Delta. If you want to santion this behaviour and withdraw from civilized society and sink down to the level of child killer... remember that you reap what you sow. And in the end it is the grunt who followed the orders that will pay the price for the folly of the politician, be he general or president.
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The Geneva Convention only applies to uniformed soldiers, not terrorists.
 
I'm pretty sure those "people" aren't there because they were handing flowers to american soldiers. As someone said the geneva convention doesn't apply to these "people."

Incase some of you are not familiar with what the Geneva convention actually states.

Part 1 Article 4 section 2

"2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. "

source - http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

As you can see the insurgents in iraq or any terriost for that matter or any supporters of insurgents, meet none of these conditions.
I don't believe in the use of torture to extract information though, because it is usually false. This waste american resources in hunting down false leads thats given just to make the torture stop.
As much as this pains me to say maybe the key is to offer a ticket home for correct intelligence, and maybe asylum in the US for something such as turning Osama.
 
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

Ok, so this means the US soldiers in Afghanistan that are out of uniform wearing the clothes of local Afghantzi's are terrorists.

And what about when the terrorist is a member of a country's legitimate armed forces or police? Your definition is not so handy then.

No, I did not call American troops baby killers, read it again.

And if you convict these defendants in a court of law then punish them accordingly but holding them in limbo is immoral. They were disappeared, not informed of the charges against them and have been allowed no contact with anyone. Would you like to switch places with them? Doubtful, you'd be screaming about your human rights and your legal rights. Mistakes happen. Even in the US legal system people are wrongfully accused and then convicted and serve time for crimes they did not commit. What makes you think that somehow now when it comes to suspected terrorists this system is suddenly infallible?
 
Rabs said:
I'm pretty sure those "people" aren't there because they were handing flowers to american soldiers. As someone said the geneva convention doesn't apply to these "people."

Incase some of you are not familiar with what the Geneva convention actually states.

Part 1 Article 4 section 2

"2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. "

source - http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

As you can see the insurgents in iraq or any terriost for that matter or any supporters of insurgents, meet none of these conditions.
I don't believe in the use of torture to extract information though, because it is usually false. This waste american resources in hunting down false leads thats given just to make the torture stop.
As much as this pains me to say maybe the key is to offer a ticket home for correct intelligence, and maybe asylum in the US for something such as turning Osama.
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It seems that you are the one that is not familiar with the Geneve Convention. :lol: You should have quoted the all article 4, here it goes:

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. ;) I think that this is clear enough!!!
 
Re: This Gitmo bullsh*t

silent driller said:
It's probably in some other forum, but I think this is political so I'm putting mine here. What the f**k is the liberal left trying to do here with this Gitmo distraction? All this :cen: about us big bad Americans mistreating some terrorist sand creature by not letting him take a piss and not having the room at just the right temperature and making him listen to rap music as forms of torture? WOW. Big f***ing deal! Nevermind the fact that this guy and his cohorts wouldn't hesitate to cut off heads off civilian contractors or drag thier freshly burned bodies and hang them from a bridge. Nevermind all the IED's he might have set up or helped to set up. Nevermind the fact that he might be the 20th hijacker. And nevermind the fact that he may have information on the world's most wanted terrorist. BUT GOD FORBID WE DENY POOR LITTLE TERRORIST MAN A CHANCE TO GO PEE PEE! People need to grow the f**k up and quit whining about Gitmo. Come off it, guys.
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well it is such a touchy thing and at the same time it depends on the person standing in front of you. i don't know what the word is in USMCJROTC but thus far in my training i am constantly being reminded that Marines are profesionals. Marines are constantly being looked at and analyzed. No matter where Marines go they will always be analyzed and it is pretty much true with all the us forces in general. all of the arguments in this topic agree on one thing and that is IT ISN'T WHAT YOU DO ITS WHO DOES IT. so keep in mind there are different rules for all players.
 
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. I think that this is clear enough!!!
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Ok, first of all Iraq is an occupied country, we have been there for several years time and there is a government set up, I believe that qualifys as "occupied." If your stating these insurgents follow the laws of war... that is quite frankly laughable. I don't consider suicide bombers blowing up restaurants full of women and children, either obeying the laws of war or carrying arms openly.
 
It just hit me!

holy crap i knew that GITMO looked way too familiar to me...

:eek:fftopic: My apoligies

in Boot camp we had a diddy to remember the five major battles of WWII..

G- guadalcanal
I- Iwo Jima
T- Tarawa
M- Midway
O- Okinawa
 
Re: This Gitmo bullsh*t

silent driller said:
It's probably in some other forum, but I think this is political so I'm putting mine here. What the f**k is the liberal left trying to do here with this Gitmo distraction? All this :cen: about us big bad Americans mistreating some terrorist sand creature by not letting him take a piss and not having the room at just the right temperature and making him listen to rap music as forms of torture? WOW. Big f***ing deal! Nevermind the fact that this guy and his cohorts wouldn't hesitate to cut off heads off civilian contractors or drag thier freshly burned bodies and hang them from a bridge. Nevermind all the IED's he might have set up or helped to set up. Nevermind the fact that he might be the 20th hijacker. And nevermind the fact that he may have information on the world's most wanted terrorist. BUT GOD FORBID WE DENY POOR LITTLE TERRORIST MAN A CHANCE TO GO PEE PEE! People need to grow the f**k up and quit whining about Gitmo. Come off it, guys.
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The only thing that is disturbing me is the unnecessary vulgar language usage. I do agree that there are some things that Liberals would find anything virtually any kind of evidence, ridiculous or not, to support their arguements. Since you live in a Country that allows its own citizens to excercise freedom of speech, I understand your anger. But unforunately there are other prisoner abuses that brings worldwide attention rather than "forcing them to listen to rap music, not letting them piss, and other minor issues."
 
Rabs said:
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. I think that this is clear enough!!!
Click to expand...

Ok, first of all Iraq is an occupied country, we have been there for several years time and there is a government set up, I believe that qualifys as "occupied." If your stating these insurgents follow the laws of war... that is quite frankly laughable. I don't consider suicide bombers blowing up restaurants full of women and children, either obeying the laws of war or carrying arms openly.
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Rabs, I hate to belabor the obvious but there are NO suicide bombers being held in Camp Delta. 8)
These are people ACCUSED of a crime, not convicted, in most cases they haven't even been charged or informed of the charges against them. They are not allowed access to the evidence upon which the charges are being made in order to prepare a defence. That flies in the face of over 200 years of US law. In the US there is a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. The days of the wild west ended over a hundred years ago and America professes to be a country that abides by the rule of law. It is time for them to stand tall and deliver in practice what they profess to the world.
 
Rabs said:
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. I think that this is clear enough!!!
Click to expand...

Ok, first of all Iraq is an occupied country, we have been there for several years time and there is a government set up, I believe that qualifys as "occupied." If your stating these insurgents follow the laws of war... that is quite frankly laughable. I don't consider suicide bombers blowing up restaurants full of women and children, either obeying the laws of war or carrying arms openly.
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Afghanistan
 
Rabs wrote
Ok, first of all Iraq is an occupied country, we have been there for several years time and there is a government set up, I believe that qualifys as "occupied." If your stating these insurgents follow the laws of war... that is quite frankly laughable. I don't consider suicide bombers blowing up restaurants full of women and children, either obeying the laws of war or carrying arms openly.
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Well, it was not ocuppied when you arrived. By your estatement I deduced that US troops always follows the rules of war, just like in Abu Ghraib. Remember that the use of ammunition loaded with uranium, the use of fragmentary bombs and many other toys are also forbidden by international law.
 
I founded some interesting info:

The interrogation methods:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.12.02.pdf

Read all, but pages 12-14 are very interesting.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/03.04.16.pdf

Now we will check the definition of torture according to UN Convention against torture:

Article 1
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application


I guess that for you staying in a POW for 4 years with someone yelling at you the all day, sleeping 3 hours a days, with dogs barking at you (if not biting), with constant privation of food/water, with sensorial privation, with constant use of anoying sounds at a great volume and lots more entertaiments is not enough to define it as torture. I do not know you, but I will go nuts in one sigle week.
 
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