This is getting out of hand.

[Yossarian]

I don't know if this is a American phenomnon or a political discussion or not, but this is getting out right out of hand.

The question of why there are so many shooting sprees where a gunman is killing more than one victim during a single instance.

And half to the time the gunman committs suicide afterwards?

What the hell?

Is this the pressue of society and the degredation of economic growth and the pressures that come with it? Or a horrific "trend' for end of the roaders?

Or is it mainly is the major media outlet's just getting dry on material and exploiting every instance of a depressed person going homicidal?

What's the real killing machine here?


( An all too familiar example of the types of semi automatic weapons that make many of these instances possilbe)

Or are these outburst a bigger sypmtom to societal problems?

 

[senojekips]

My own view is that it is a combination of things, firstly there is the public acceptance of ever more violent games and movies that glorify needless violence (The rambo/wild west phenomenon) coupled to the easy availability of the weapons to carry it out

Secondly the general acceptance of "Political Correctness" doesn't help either where gangs and other crazies have been able to expand and make huge profits from crime, now effectively out numbering and out gunning the police, along with the fact that so many of the mentally ill have been released into the public to reduce government spending.

I suppose it could be summed up by saying that the government, at the behest of the PC crowd has emasculated the agencies who once had the powers to protect us.

 

[Yossarian]

My own view is that it is a combination of things, firstly there is the public acceptance of ever more violent games.

Before video games it was tv , before tv those darn dime novels. Just because it wasn't in paramount during the last generation does not mean it's the root. Every generation that experiances something new seems to place negative opinions on it.

I already know I will be that way in my later years, but that withstanding,

Fear of the next technological innovation often to leads to it being blamed for other ills of society.

May it contribute in some cases? Certainly, will it be shot down as much in 20 years? Doubt it. A syptom to some cases , not all.

Secondly the general acceptance of "Political Correctness" doesn't help either where gangs and other crazies have been able to expand and make huge profits from crime,

You have my hat in on that one, I can't agree more, this political correctness is intruding in policy of regards to what is benificial to society or not in terms of correctional legtristration all the way to firearm laws.

now effectively out numbering and out gunning the police, along with the fact that so many of the mentally ill have been released into the public to reduce government spending.

This is a strange one, from what I have seen in this country's law enforcement history in the last 30 years in particular, is that what you say was true to a degree as more voilent, but really infrequent outbursts of voilence such as the school massacres of the 90s, and this culminated in a way with the Hollywood Bank of America Incident.

But ever since 9/11, it seems that law enforcement sometimes can be deemed to over respond in some instances that did not result in voilence (Like False bank alarms and bomb threats that don't make national headlines.).

Some police departments in this country are contemplating anti material rifles... I do belief One non federal agency already has them.

As for federal agencies they can , and have federalized use of armored military vehicles from local National Gaurd units, and that was in instances before 9/11, I am not sure how policy has changed since.

Since 9/11 , the emergancy use of anti tank weapons were contemplated before the famous "Killdozer" instance, being that the driver committed suicide they were not necessitated.

Point is, the gap is closed. Assualt weapons and a variety of other measures are more readily availble to law enforcement nationwide in regards to these spikes in deadly crimes involving firearms.

I suppose it could be summed up by saying that the government, at the behest of the PC crowd has emasculated the agencies who once had the powers to protect us.

Some of the legistration that's been turned down in terms of public monitoring, especially in the electronic areas of citizen privacy. Are somewhat alarming.

A hard idea to grasp I suppose to those who contemplate such an instance outside of the U.S. , I already know It would be very difficult for myself to analyze crime rates in another country (save for Mexico for obvious reasons.).

I suppose that a big country makes for big crime, of course outside of a war zone I don't know what other industrialized country that suffers such deadly occurances such as the horrific recent trend in shooting sprees...

What catches my attention is that I have researched this trend, many of these shootings happen in small communities like one such instance in Texas where the attack started as a man attempted to kill his family at a local courthouse there,

If it can happen in such a place it can happen anywhere, that is the distrubing part.

 

[BritinBritain]

Personally I would lay the blame firmly at the feet of bleeding heart liberals who say (among other things), "Children should be allowed to express themselves freely without fear of being chastised." Yea and what do we end up with? Little thugs who know that they can do what they like and get away with it.

Parents aren't allowed to properly discipline their children without fear of ending up in court, then again some parents don't give a damn and allow their "little angels" to run riot. I've seen school kids tell their teachers to "Foxtrot Oscar" literally. When I was a kid if we looked at a teacher wrong we'd get a good hiding. There was a saying, "Children should be seen and not heard." If I butted into an adults conversation I'd get a clout around the ear, I have even heard children call their parents arseholes. I could go on and on. The whole world has gone mad, values like respect and good manners have gone out the window.

I brought my kids up the same way as I was brought up, firm discipline, but always fair, step out of line and they get a kick up the arse, literally.

What's the solution? I have no idea.

 

[Yossarian]

Personally I would lay the blame firmly at the feet of bleeding heart liberals who say (among other things), "Children should be allowed to express themselves freely without fear of being chastised." Yea and what do we end up with? Little thugs who know that they can do what they like and get away with it.

Parents aren't allowed to properly discipline their children without fear of ending up in court, then again some parents don't give a damn and allow their "little angels" to run riot. I've seen school kids tell their teachers to "Foxtrot Oscar" literally. When I was a kid if we looked at a teacher wrong we'd get a good hiding. There was a saying, "Children should be seen and not heard." If I butted into an adults conversation I'd get a clout around the ear, I have even heard children call their parents arseholes. I could go on and on. The whole world has gone mad, values like respect and good manners have gone out the window.

I brought my kids up the same way as I was brought up, firm discipline, but always fair, step out of line and they get a kick up the arse, literally.

What's the solution? I have no idea.

This will be the ailing of the next few generations,

I did not grow up with a consistent parent figure, I literally in many instances raised myself.

I suppose that's why I value human life so much?

But regardless, this is the world of single mother's, childeren with no positive adult figures to learn from, no centralized moral themes that are consistient seem to exsist anymore,

As for the bleeding hearts...

It's been said that application of childish emotion to adult issues can be catestropic to finding a real fruit bearing solution.

Another problem I have observed is there seems to be a weak amount of will and ability to deal with setback or depression in the youth these days, this maybe contributed to some of the shooter's mindset, particularly the younger ones.

As for fixing this? I don't think we can, we over idolize material and sex appeal, and wide spread complacency feeds the conditions that may have fed the shooters motives.

Sometimes I feel the only way to impede this world we've created is to let that complacency catch up with us, and the bottom to fall out of society, let people go without for awhile and maybe the value of human life may go back up a bit.

 

[hghlndr6]

Brit...you sound like an old fart (like me ).

I have no idea either

 

[BritinBritain]

Brit...you sound like an old fart (like me ).

I have no idea either

Too right I am mate lol.

 

[George]

It's not the guns. The Broomhandle came out with a 10 rd mag in 1897, & bigger box mags not much later, the P-35 High Power in 1935, ect. I'd say break down of disipline @ home & school due to Liberal influence. Spare the rod, spoil the child. And no I don't advocate child abuse, just there's a wide range on people's view of what that is.

 

[VDKMS]

Perception. Almost every crime gets the media, this gives the perception that violence is growing while in fact it is decreasing.

Violent crime rates in the United states per 100,000 population beginning in 1960. Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Perception. Almost every crime gets the media, this gives the perception that violence is growing while in fact it is decreasing.

Violent crime rates in the United states per 100,000 population beginning in 1960. Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics.

I was going to suggest that it is because everything has media attached to it now, so it seems to be increasing. I still think crime is too high for acceptance though. I believe Detroit gets one homicide or more a day.

 

[Yossarian]

That's what I am seeing as well, media coverage and attention seems to be a major influence on the over bloating of stastics or misuse of them.

I think a clearler picture of what violent outburst like these should be mandated and provided to the public.

So that all citizens can have an idea of what these times are going through.

However let us not confuse all crime and violent shooting sprees which are on hand here as necessarly the same exact thing.

Crime may be decreasing on the whole, but that does not mean that violent massacre style homicides are as well.

 

[George]

Perception. Almost every crime gets the media, this gives the perception that violence is growing while in fact it is decreasing.

Violent crime rates in the United states per 100,000 population beginning in 1960. Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Many States have gone to easier issue of CCW since the early '90s.

I was going to suggest that it is because everything has media attached to it now, so it seems to be increasing. I still think crime is too high for acceptance though. I believe Detroit gets one homicide or more a day.

Awhile back statisticly Americans were less likely to be killed in Baghdad than in Washington, D.C.
Gun free school zones give people a green light to attack knowing there's no one armed to defend themselves, except a single cop that some schools have. Seem to recall reading that Palistinians often attacked schools untill Israel passed a Law that all school personell could carry & all adults on field trips must carry, attacks ended @ that point. I guess it's the lack of decent moral upbringing, but youngsters don't seem to care about human life much. Many Cities have a problem with youth violence.

 

[headwards]

I dont think its a lack of discipline so much as a sense of entitlement which breeds a feeling of 'unfairness'

 

[RayManKiller3]

Awhile back statisticly Americans were less likely to be killed in Baghdad than in Washington, D.C.
Gun free school zones give people a green light to attack knowing there's no one armed to defend themselves, except a single cop that some schools have. Seem to recall reading that Palistinians often attacked schools untill Israel passed a Law that all school personell could carry & all adults on field trips must carry, attacks ended @ that point. I guess it's the lack of decent moral upbringing, but youngsters don't seem to care about human life much. Many Cities have a problem with youth violence.

lol, don't compare the Israeli situation to U.S's. They are completely different. While I don't give a crap about gun rights and all (as I will just stay away from violent cities and neighborhoods), I do not really believe more guns in the hands of civilians will reduce crime. If someone is going to kill someone, they will do it regardless of the threat of being caught or killed. Guns make it way easier to kill not just one person, but many others at the same time. You can't successfully go on a public mass killing spree without a firearm.

First reason why your Israeli comparison is off is because they have a common enemy (terrorists) and a higher morale standard than the average American (going by what I witness). Also U.S is way more diverse, so comparing us to homologous countries is also incorrect.

 

[Yossarian]

I dont think its a lack of discipline so much as a sense of entitlement which breeds a feeling of 'unfairness'

You mean how it's in our very nature to pull the victimisation card?

How we are all victims in this world and how we delegate all accountablility and responsibility somewhere else as soon as poissible these days?.


Scary part is most people seem to do this subconsciously.

 

[George]

I dont think its a lack of discipline so much as a sense of entitlement which breeds a feeling of 'unfairness'

Lack of proper upbringing, sence of unearned entitlement from being coddled, The "don't hurt their self-esteem" instead of pushing achevment. A recent Medie article lamented that the older folks are richer than youths, well no **** they're just starting out, but it's an example of class envy/warfare that's going on.

lol, don't compare the Israeli situation to U.S's. They are completely different. While I don't give a crap about gun rights and all (as I will just stay away from violent cities and neighborhoods), I do not really believe more guns in the hands of civilians will reduce crime. If someone is going to kill someone, they will do it regardless of the threat of being caught or killed. Guns make it way easier to kill not just one person, but many others at the same time. You can't successfully go on a public mass killing spree without a firearm.

First reason why your Israeli comparison is off is because they have a common enemy (terrorists) and a higher morale standard than the average American (going by what I witness). Also U.S is way more diverse, so comparing us to homologous countries is also incorrect.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions! The point of the Israeli school thing is...if the school personnel being armed discourages attacks from at least partialy trained, if not fully trained, Terrorists, it should have a simular effect here, vs the shooting fish in a barrel that the current "gun free school zone law" has created.

 

[headwards]

You mean how it's in our very nature to pull the victimisation card?

How we are all victims in this world and how we delegate all accountablility and responsibility somewhere else as soon as poissible these days?.


Scary part is most people seem to do this subconsciously.

Like how at school in sport the kids dont pick teams now because it creates a hierarchy of worth, how scores in tests arent posted with names- rather numbers creating anonyminity. How there arent allowed to be winners and losers.
Then one day the child faces a tough reality that cruising along hasnt got him where he wants to be but society has failed to teach him to take/be able to cope with that and he casts around and blames the group.

 

[Yossarian]

Like how at school in sport the kids dont pick teams now because it creates a hierarchy of worth, how scores in tests arent posted with names- rather numbers creating anonyminity. How there arent allowed to be winners and losers.
Then one day the child faces a tough reality that cruising along hasnt got him where he wants to be but society has failed to teach him to take/be able to cope with that and he casts around and blames the group.

These conditions can be defiently a syptom of some of these "loner" instances of the violent sprees.

 

[headwards]

Isnt that what you are talking about? I dont watch a lot of American media but school shootings are all that come to mind with motiveless killings.

 

[Yossarian]

Yes many of these instance seem to lack a clear cut criminal motive as you would expect.

Things like this I believe seperate these shooting from domestic terrorist attacks on the grounds that the killers either want attention drawn to themselves, or simply are ailing from societal pressues that push the to such a point, along with mental issues.