Germany lost the war in 1940

Der Alte

Banned
The more I study the German war effort, the more convinced I become that Dunkirk laid the foundations for the German defeat.

For Germany´s military leadership Dunkirk was the first great turning-point in the Second World War. Hitler was confident that with this battle he had demonstrated his “military invincibility” to the world. Had not the victory been won, to some extent at least, in accordance with his own ideas?

The campaign also confirmed his belief in his own military genius, while National Socialist propaganda went to reckless lengths to develop a single instance into a myth of invincibility. This was the original source of Hitler’s military hubris; the psychological factor which as time went on was to exercise a more and more deleterious effect on Germany’s conduct of the war. Further, it was during the Dunkirk campaign that Hitler first forced OKH to accept his own military views, by short-circuiting it at a critical juncture of the fighting and transferring a decision of far-reaching importance to a subordinate command whose views happened to coincide with his own.

In the last resort this was an important step towards the confusion which later so confounded Germany’s military leadership. What now developed was a gradual inner dissolution of the chain of command; the actual military instrument of leadership, the OKH, was undermined, overruled, and finally abolished altogether – with terrible consequences for the German people.

The course was laid and just like the Titanic Germany was on the way to her destiny.
 
That is an interesting view.
I always believed it was when Germany started fighting on various other fronts, instead of concentrating on knocking Britain out of the war.
By getting involved in North Africa and the Balkans and Greece, to help out Italy, and then launching the attack on the Soviet Union, without obtaining a definate, outright victory, I always believed Germany over stretched themselves.
Another thing I always thought was a key, was the armed forces of Germany were not designed for a long drawn out war, especially the Luftwaffe which was seen as airborne artillery for the army and possesing no long range strategic bombers at the outset of the war.
 
The more I study the German war effort, the more convinced I become that Dunkirk laid the foundations for the German defeat.

For Germany´s military leadership Dunkirk was the first great turning-point in the Second World War. Hitler was confident that with this battle he had demonstrated his “military invincibility” to the world. Had not the victory been won, to some extent at least, in accordance with his own ideas?

The campaign also confirmed his belief in his own military genius, while National Socialist propaganda went to reckless lengths to develop a single instance into a myth of invincibility. This was the original source of Hitler’s military hubris; the psychological factor which as time went on was to exercise a more and more deleterious effect on Germany’s conduct of the war. Further, it was during the Dunkirk campaign that Hitler first forced OKH to accept his own military views, by short-circuiting it at a critical juncture of the fighting and transferring a decision of far-reaching importance to a subordinate command whose views happened to coincide with his own.

In the last resort this was an important step towards the confusion which later so confounded Germany’s military leadership. What now developed was a gradual inner dissolution of the chain of command; the actual military instrument of leadership, the OKH, was undermined, overruled, and finally abolished altogether – with terrible consequences for the German people.

The course was laid and just like the Titanic Germany was on the way to her destiny.

While I can see merit in the argument and I do not disagree with your points I am going to disagree with your conclusion.

Just for fun lets take Russia out of the picture all together make it Sweden, it is still supplying Germany with raw materials and oil but it isn't going to attack Germany and vice versa, with the full weight of the German Army, Navy and Air Force focused on defending the gains of 1939-1940 could Britain and the Commonwealth have ever regained a foothold in Europe personally I don't think so, sure the RAF would have done there thing but eventually the losses there would have eventually become crippling.

The only outcome in this scenario in my opinion is a stalemate, the RAF and RN preventing Germany from crossing the Channel to attack Britain and the Luftwaffe and a very powerful army (not bogged down in Russia) preventing Britain from landing in France.

So yes mistakes were made at Dunkirk and yes it gave Hitler an aura of invincibility but no it wasn't a turning point in the war as the result in the West had been achieved with or without Britain being conquered as Britain could not successfully roll back Germany gains without US resources and the Russians tying down 2/3 of the German armed forces.
 
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In my opinion (for what it's worth), Germany began to lose after the Battle of Britain. The RAF was badly mauled but undefeated and with the strength of the Royal Navy at that time an invasion of Britain would have proven impossible. With the invasion of Russia and Hitler declaring was on the USA, it was all over bar the shouting.
 
The more I study the German war effort, the more convinced I become that Dunkirk laid the foundations for the German defeat.

For Germany´s military leadership Dunkirk was the first great turning-point in the Second World War. Hitler was confident that with this battle he had demonstrated his “military invincibility” to the world. Had not the victory been won, to some extent at least, in accordance with his own ideas?

The campaign also confirmed his belief in his own military genius, while National Socialist propaganda went to reckless lengths to develop a single instance into a myth of invincibility. This was the original source of Hitler’s military hubris; the psychological factor which as time went on was to exercise a more and more deleterious effect on Germany’s conduct of the war. Further, it was during the Dunkirk campaign that Hitler first forced OKH to accept his own military views, by short-circuiting it at a critical juncture of the fighting and transferring a decision of far-reaching importance to a subordinate command whose views happened to coincide with his own.

In the last resort this was an important step towards the confusion which later so confounded Germany’s military leadership. What now developed was a gradual inner dissolution of the chain of command; the actual military instrument of leadership, the OKH, was undermined, overruled, and finally abolished altogether – with terrible consequences for the German people.

The course was laid and just like the Titanic Germany was on the way to her destiny.
From a purely German point of view, I think you're right. Hitler lost the war for Germany and without his bungling, disasters such as the demise of the 6th army at Stalingrad, and failure to take Leningrad and Moscow would have been properly planned and carried out. Military geniuses such as Manstein, Hoth, Gunderian, and Rommel would not have been dismissed or forced to commit suicide because of Hitler's whim. However, I must say the General Staff was not perfect. The Battle of Kursk was an entirely OKH planned offensive, and was a complete failure.

But ultimately we should not only look to such factors in assessing Hitler or any other German role-player’s judgment in WW2 - in many ways this was in any case completely overshadowed by ULTRA, the real hidden hand of Allied success against Germany. As always, superior intelligence provides the critical advantage in any strategic process, and WWII was no exception.
 
From a purely German point of view, I think you're right. Hitler lost the war for Germany and without his bungling, disasters such as the demise of the 6th army at Stalingrad, and failure to take Leningrad and Moscow would have been properly planned and carried out. Military geniuses such as Manstein, Hoth, Gunderian, and Rommel would not have been dismissed or forced to commit suicide because of Hitler's whim. However, I must say the General Staff was not perfect. The Battle of Kursk was an entirely OKH planned offensive, and was a complete failure.

But ultimately we should not only look to such factors in assessing Hitler or any other German role-player’s judgment in WW2 - in many ways this was in any case completely overshadowed by ULTRA, the real hidden hand of Allied success against Germany. As always, superior intelligence provides the critical advantage in any strategic process, and WWII was no exception.

Once Hitler took over from the high command, he became too involved as a supreme commander.
The modern term is "Micro manage"
He wouldn't just give the orders for an offensive, but he would give orders down to a tactical level, such as the placement of machine gun position, troop tactics etc, reducing his field commanders to nothing more than messengers.
The only way for commanders to exploit situations in combat was to disobey direct orders, and hope his gamble worked.
The role of Ultra was vital, most historians agree it took two years off the war.
If you ever get a chance to visit Bletchley Park, its well worth it. Such a fascinatining place, and sadly very run down, needing as much financial input as possible.
 
@Troop
Been there a few years ago. It is interesting place indeed.

My aunt was in the Political Warfare Executive during the war. She was involved in black radio broadcasts. She never told what she did during her service. As she said, it was secret and she could never reveal anything. That promise she kept.
 
You know what?
I think there is far too great a tendency to blame Germany's defeat on Hitler, there is no doubt he was a poor strategist but there were multiple reasons for Germany's defeat.

For example people refer to the Lotzen decision as the one that cost Germany the war in the East yet I personally can not find fault in Hitlers decision to send Guderian South rather than on to Moscow as the capture of Moscow would have left Army Group Centre in a huge salient with AG-North back at Leningrad and AG-South outside Kiev, if any mistake was made here is was Guderians insistence that he take all his forces South when they were not needed so there is a possibility that both objectives could have been reached.

The demise of the 6th Army at Stalingrad is another area Hitler takes the rap for, yet had the 6th Army withdrawn from Stalingrad while it could a sizable portion of Army Group A and B would have been trapped in the Caucasus and that would have been a far greater loss than that of the 6th Army, as it was they only just got back in time even with the sacrifice.
Once again in my opinion while harsh Hitler's decision was the right one with respect to the over all situation.

Overall while I do not consider Hitler a great soldier but the decisions people seem to attack him over are possibly some of the few he actually got right and had the likes of Goering been more realistic in their abilities, Paulus not stopped for a 2 week rest outside Stalingrad allowing the city to be defended and von Richthofen not thought it was a great idea to bomb Stalingrad to rubble prior to the assault on the city thus turning it into a defenders paradise things may well have turned out differently for the 6th Army.
 
The analysis of Adolf Hitler as a military leader has revealed a very complicated man who placed his own self-interests above his country, its people, and the rest of the world. Millions of people would die from his quest for lebensraum and the world would again go to war. Hitler was convinced that he, and he alone, was capable of restoring Germany to her rightful place among other nations throughout the world. Hitler’s early success in the war, against the advice of his generals, served only to verify his belief that he was indeed a true military genius. As the war lingered on, however, his leadership began to falter.

Hitler could have been stopped in his tracks if Britain, France, and the rest of the world had not stood idly by and allowed him to gain the confidence he needed to continue his expansion to the west. The world’s tolerance of Hitler’s actions, therefore, reinforced his self-esteem as a military leader and allowed him to implement his opportunistic strategy one step at a time. Hitler’s repeated violations of the Treaty of Versailles should have indicated that he had more in mind than just protecting Germany’s sovereignty.

Hitler’s strengths as a military leader and the contributions he made to Germany’s war effort cannot be overlooked. His phenomenal memory and keen eye for detail enhanced his ability to comprehend technical matters and problems with armaments. His extraordinary ability to assess the advantages and flaws of military weaponry resulted in major improvements in German tank and warship designs. Hitler’s technical insight was even more remarkable due to the fact that he did not have a technological or industrial background. Hitler was not only an avid reader of military history, he also kept himself well-informed of his enemy’s capabilities such as current weapon systems development and war production figures—admirable characteristics of good military leadership.

Hitler’s weaknesses, however, far outweighed his strengths. His mistrust of his military leaders made him suspect their recommendations and only served to strengthen his conviction that he, and he alone, knew what was best for Germany. This lead to his intricate involvement in military matters down to the minute detail. He failed to allow his commanders in the field the freedom to make decisions based on their experience and knowledge of the battlefield. Hitler’s military leadership was hampered by his lack of experience in commanding troops in the field which impaired his ability to assess and analyze a military situation from the viewpoint of a seasoned military officer.

Hitler’s decision making process was marred by procrastination and failure to involve his military leaders in matters of strategic importance. He was often secluded and did not approach problems in a logical manner—in fact just the opposite. Once he reached a decision on an issue, he would search for facts to support his decision. His greatest flaw in this area was his determination that his decision was final, therefore making it was almost impossible to change his mind even if the facts supported a different solution.
 
@Troop
Been there a few years ago. It is interesting place indeed.

My aunt was in the Political Warfare Executive during the war. She was involved in black radio broadcasts. She never told what she did during her service. As she said, it was secret and she could never reveal anything. That promise she kept.

Where I live is where the BBC moved to during the war.
They set up a radio station to broadcast black propaganda to Germany at a place called Chicksands.
Today Chicksands is an Army Intelligence, Green Slime, base.
There is a book called:The Bedford Triangle: U.S. Undercover Operations from England in World War 2.
Its a very interseting book about the whole of the secret war, but also about how the Allies set up a radio station that seemed like a legitimate station to the Germans, but was a way of feeding them the Allied version of events.
 
@Troop
Thanks for the tip about the book.
In February 1943 a radio show started to broadcast in German called Deutsche Kurzwellensender Atlantik. This translated into English was 'German Short-Wave Radio Atlantic'. The band of the Royal Marines recorded real German military music to help the show sound really German.
 
It did not help that Hitler surrounded himself with "Yes men".
He would not tolerate contradiction or anyone who was not of the same view as him.
This resulted in him sacking a number of skilled Generals because they would not agree with his ideas, and pointed out the errors of his strategy and tactics.
His inability to delegate and to demand control of all military assets, such as the armoured divisions in Northern France, were unhelpful.
He did indeed have an intrest and knowledge of weapons but his belief in "Bigger means better" resulted in vital resources and time being diverted to develop weapons that made little if any difference in the outcome of the war.
 
I also believed that the German defeat was because they fought on to many fronts. But when I follow der alte's logic this fighting on many fronts may be a direct result of the invincibility feel of the Germans.

In my opinion the Battle of Britain was also a turning point in the war in so far that it changed the way it was fought. After a German crew bombed a civilian target by mistake Churchill immediately ordered a revenge attack which in turn make Hitler decide to bomb London instead of the RAF airfields, and the "massacre" bombing raids got started on both sides. The RAF was the clear winner of this descision because now their planes were only destroyed in the air, a place where they were superiour to the Germans.

@Trooper1854
in the 90's I went to visit the "I was 20 in 45" exhibition in Brussels. It showed some stuff the resistance and intelligence people used. Quite remarkable things for that time.
 
I also believed that the German defeat was because they fought on to many fronts. But when I follow der alte's logic this fighting on many fronts may be a direct result of the invincibility feel of the Germans.

In my opinion the Battle of Britain was also a turning point in the war in so far that it changed the way it was fought. After a German crew bombed a civilian target by mistake Churchill immediately ordered a revenge attack which in turn make Hitler decide to bomb London instead of the RAF airfields, and the "massacre" bombing raids got started on both sides. The RAF was the clear winner of this descision because now their planes were only destroyed in the air, a place where they were superiour to the Germans.

@Trooper1854
in the 90's I went to visit the "I was 20 in 45" exhibition in Brussels. It showed some stuff the resistance and intelligence people used. Quite remarkable things for that time.

The Battle of Britain could only have been a turning point if its failure had allowed Britain to regain the initiative and at some point defeat Germany and the reality is that it didn't, it would be far more accurate to say the declaration of war on America was the turning point in the West but even that is debatable given that I am not sure the Western Allies could have gained a foothold on European soil without having 2/3 of the German army bled white in Russia.

Lets be honest here most of the troops and all of the divisions garrisoning France in 1944 were understrength, under equipped, half trained troops made up of recovering units from Russia, troops unfit for front line service in Russia and foreign conscripts that didn't want to be there anyway and D-Day was still a touch and go affair.

The Battle of Britain created a stalemate that would most likely still be the front line if not for the war in the East.

Germany lost the war because:
A) It was not ready for a long war.
B) Hitler and half his inner circle were a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
C) The German High Command made a lot of errors that eventually overwhelmed them and the largest error was not growing a nut sack and putting a bullet through Hitler in 1935.
D) Taking on more than they can handle, no matter how good you are no one is capable of ruling the world, every empire through out history has tried and failed.
 
There is an suggestion that the Germans did not so much loose the Battle of Britain as much as loose interest in it because Hitler was more focused in the Soviet Union.
The inability of the Germans to focus on one campaign long enough to secure a final victory, rather than darting from one to another, like an excited child in a toy shop, also gave their enemy time to recover and regroup.
 
There is an suggestion that the Germans did not so much loose the Battle of Britain as much as loose interest in it because Hitler was more focused in the Soviet Union.
The inability of the Germans to focus on one campaign long enough to secure a final victory, rather than darting from one to another, like an excited child in a toy shop, also gave their enemy time to recover and regroup.


Personally I would suggest that they knew Operation Sealion was not going to go ahead and therefore there was no point in continuing the Battle of Britain, they then switched to bombing cities and infrastructure in order to hinder British ability to regain strength at minimal cost and moved the bulk of their forces to the next objective.

Even had the Luftwaffe been able to destroy every airfield in Southern England the RAF would have simply moved North out of German fighter range and carried on the fight.
Any German invasion would still have to come through the Royal Navy covered by the RAF protected by a Kriegsmarine that had been soundly hammered in Norway, in the end I think it was fairly obvious no invasion of Britain was possible, the only available opportunity was on the heels of the Dunkirk evacuation when chaos reigned not in September.
 
Basically Hitler lost the war for the following reasons
[1] He tried to fight on to many fronts
[3] He was fighting to many different countries
[3] He could not make up for all the losses suffered on these different fronts.
[4] He was out produced by the Americans and Russians and did not have the air power to disrupt their production.

Basically he was just ground down in finish
 
[4] He was out produced by the Americans and Russians and did not have the air power to disrupt their production.
Basically he was just ground down in finish

Thats the truth!
He couldn't reach across the Atlantic or beyond the Urals, and the tidal wave of Shermans and T-34s (among other things) wore away at him creating losses he could not replace.
 
He also was outproduced by Britain and its Commonwealth

That is very true, but the factories in Britain were in range of the Luftwaffe and though the air raids themselves did not create as much damage as expected, there was disruption to production.
Also, we never had the capacity of production that the USA and USSR had.
 
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