The German invasion of Russia: - Page 3




 
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October 19th, 2007  
Kunikov
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy
Ooooooooooh! No need to throw your rattle out of your pram old chap. Why not pull your finger out and try a smile. Glad to know you can read, not all of us are that bright.
Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion.
October 19th, 2007  
Kunikov
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
When did they say this?
Not here to do your homework for you. Already told you what book you can read to find out that answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Why can't you tell me yourself why you think it won't work.
Because there is no basis for it to working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Is that so? What you posted here is basically waffle and has nothing to do with my point that Stalin did very little when he knew of the impending German invasion. Unless you have respected sources that state otherwise?
Oh, now you want more sources? I have already pointed out that the Red Army grew an enormous amount because of Hitler's actions, who do you think authorized that?
October 19th, 2007  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
Not here to do your homework for you. Already told you what book you can read to find out that answer.
That wasn't what I was getting at. It seems the point I was attempting to make has gone straight over your head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
Because there is no basis for it to working.
In your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
Oh, now you want more sources? I have already pointed out that the Red Army grew an enormous amount because of Hitler's actions, who do you think authorized that?
I don't need any more sources to support my point of view - the body of evidence on offer is overwhelming. Stalin did virtually nothing when his military intelligence, Richard Sorge and the Lucy Spy Ring all told him about Hitler's attentions to attack. Stalin knew the date and time of attack, he had all the plans of attack and axis of advance for all 3 army groups. He even knew the names of all the German commanders involved down to corps level. Yet he did virtually nothing about it and he nearly paid a fatal price for it. Don't you acknowledge this?!
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October 19th, 2007  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion.

My pleasure.
October 19th, 2007  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Ich bin wieder da! Let the fun begin.

The question is a simple one...pure economics and geopolitical reality. I have stated over and over again that the problem of mass is unimportant. Read any analysis of war principles. The issue of mass falls to that of effect. Concentrating a million men counts for nothing in relation to the concentration of a million bombs. War is a matter of effect.

Russia fell to German arms in WWI. WWII was not all that different a scenario. The Russians were beaten to a pulp. A look at the last major German "defensive" action of the war makes this point clearer than glass. The Germans, even in their dying hours, were able to kill Russians on a supreme scale -- the battle of the Seelower Höhen. Without a western European contribution, Russia was screwed, dead, nothing.


The following link is only for the purposes of the general public. If you want more or complain about wiki, then first prove that I am incorrect by way of source material. I can give enough to choke on. If you feel qualified to make a strong stance, please explain how.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...Seelow_Heights
October 20th, 2007  
Doppleganger
 
 
Seelow Heights was an excellent operational example of elastic defence in action. The only thing missing was that the Germans were not strong enough to ultimately resist the weight of numbers against them nor did they have the strength to exploit any overextension of the Soviet advance. This kind of operation is exactly what the Germans should have doing on a bigger scale after the recapture of Kharkov in Spring 1943.

It's also true that the Soviets seemed to be in a massive rush to get to Berlin and wasted men and materials accordingly. Probably just as well for ole Josef that Hitler did not authorize elastic defence but instead insisted on a more rigid defence posture. They lost enough men and materials as it was.
October 20th, 2007  
Kunikov
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
That wasn't what I was getting at. It seems the point I was attempting to make has gone straight over your head.

In your opinion.

I don't need any more sources to support my point of view - the body of evidence on offer is overwhelming. Stalin did virtually nothing when his military intelligence, Richard Sorge and the Lucy Spy Ring all told him about Hitler's attentions to attack. Stalin knew the date and time of attack, he had all the plans of attack and axis of advance for all 3 army groups. He even knew the names of all the German commanders involved down to corps level. Yet he did virtually nothing about it and he nearly paid a fatal price for it. Don't you acknowledge this?!
Actually you're rehashing propaganda. After doing real research and writing a paper on Sorge's predictions it is clear that he did not predict the exact date or time, that is a falsification that began during Khrushchev's time. Practically no one predicted the exact date, but plenty of agents predicted many different dates, that's called disinformation. In fact, Stalin was smart not to listen to their broad and general outlines of when something would happen. If he had, he would have mobilized the Red Army during the spring of 1941 and given Hitler the out he needed to begin a war. I'd love to hear where you're getting your information about what Stalin knew and didn't know though, your sources are?
October 20th, 2007  
Kunikov
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Garchy
Ich bin wieder da! Let the fun begin.

The question is a simple one...pure economics and geopolitical reality. I have stated over and over again that the problem of mass is unimportant. Read any analysis of war principles. The issue of mass falls to that of effect. Concentrating a million men counts for nothing in relation to the concentration of a million bombs. War is a matter of effect.

Russia fell to German arms in WWI. WWII was not all that different a scenario. The Russians were beaten to a pulp. A look at the last major German "defensive" action of the war makes this point clearer than glass. The Germans, even in their dying hours, were able to kill Russians on a supreme scale -- the battle of the Seelower Höhen. Without a western European contribution, Russia was screwed, dead, nothing.


The following link is only for the purposes of the general public. If you want more or complain about wiki, then first prove that I am incorrect by way of source material. I can give enough to choke on. If you feel qualified to make a strong stance, please explain how.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...Seelow_Heights
It seems you like to generalize. Your use of wikipedia shows you lack a knowledge of sources. Your examples are nit picked, nothing new there, they also aren't based on much since Seelow heights has been one of the biggest propaganda tools by the Germans and the West, the losses there were nothing out of the ordinary for the Red Army. When you start present actual evidence then maybe you'll be worth a further response. For a beginning, list the losses for both sides for the operations throughout 1944 and 1945, then we'll count who annihilated who on a 'supreme scale.' Oh, don't forget to include Axis allies and Hiwis, etc.
October 20th, 2007  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
Actually you're rehashing propaganda. After doing real research and writing a paper on Sorge's predictions it is clear that he did not predict the exact date or time, that is a falsification that began during Khrushchev's time. Practically no one predicted the exact date, but plenty of agents predicted many different dates, that's called disinformation. In fact, Stalin was smart not to listen to their broad and general outlines of when something would happen. If he had, he would have mobilized the Red Army during the spring of 1941 and given Hitler the out he needed to begin a war. I'd love to hear where you're getting your information about what Stalin knew and didn't know though, your sources are?
I suspect if I listed sources you'd just shoot them down and label them as more western or soviet-era propaganda. The most inaccurate claim for Sorge I've heard is 20th June instead of 22 June and surely 2 days out ahead of schedule is close enough for Stalin to at the very least start taking some prudent defensive action. Even if I was getting contradictory data from 3 different sources it would still tell me that 'something was up' and that I ought to at least prepare for the worst.

If you have some other sources that repudiate that Stalin wasn't as well-informed regarding Hitler's intentions as many believe then I'd be genuinely interested to look at them. As long as they're not in Russian as I can't read that language.
October 20th, 2007  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
It seems you like to generalize. Your use of wikipedia shows you lack a knowledge of sources. Your examples are nit picked, nothing new there, they also aren't based on much since Seelow heights has been one of the biggest propaganda tools by the Germans and the West, the losses there were nothing out of the ordinary for the Red Army. When you start present actual evidence then maybe you'll be worth a further response. For a beginning, list the losses for both sides for the operations throughout 1944 and 1945, then we'll count who annihilated who on a 'supreme scale.' Oh, don't forget to include Axis allies and Hiwis, etc.

Do you have any responses that don't involve telling people they are wrong without offering evidence of your own?
I mean its great you have opinions but its a bit rich to be criticising others opinions without giving a justification for your argument.
 


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