The German campaign of conquering Britain

[MightyMacbeth]

Thanks alot fellas. If you have more to tell, please do say it

Doppleganger, hmm, well, I am like a seeker of enlightenment. I sit back, listen to this and listen to that and try to make everything up, I might ask a few questions about not so clear things. I am pretty much like that in real life anyway. More of a listener than a speaker, listening and contemplating. Besides, I bet your knowledge on the matter is far more greater than mines

 

[Ollie Garchy]

Thanks alot fellas. If you have more to tell, please do say it...Doppleganger, hmm, well, I am like a seeker of enlightenment. I sit back, listen to this and listen to that and try to make everything up, I might ask a few questions about not so clear things. I am pretty much like that in real life anyway. More of a listener than a speaker, listening and contemplating. Besides, I bet your knowledge on the matter is far more greater than mines

Doppleganger is right. Do not just leach off of others. Give us your opinion. Your opinion, no matter what it is, counts. Factual knowledge is unimportant. There are always "smarter" people. But you are a person. And we respect your opinion. We or I will subject it to scrutiny. But that is what you should want. Remember: whatever it is, we respect you.

There are no "clear things". The belief in certainty is an illusion. "[R]eal life" is marked by intellectual inconsistency. Why? There are only fluid or murky ideas...constant change. This change is what I have come to admire. And, I love it. Our lives are complex. The past is even more complicated. Hundreds of millions of dead people cry out for fair standards. Our lives cannot be reduced to a sentence or two. Nor can theirs.

 

[MightyMacbeth]

ok, thats good to hear. You know, you all are more experts on the matter than me, and I didnt know what I can contribute, and if I had said anything, I think that you might start criticizing me heavily and jumping at me heh..

So what exactly do you want my view in?

 

[Gator]

I'd always heard that Hitler didn't really want all out War with England.

Hitler made a lot of mistakes, the big ones were starting War in the first place, then going into Russia, and declaring War on the United States of America, just to name a few and I for one am thankful he made so many mistakes after he started making War to begin with.

 

[MightyMacbeth]

yea, just imagine what might have happened if he didnt go to war with Russia

 

[Bob]

Hitler also made the mistake of not talking and cooperating more with his allies, especially Japan. If Japan did not declare war on the United States by attacking Pearl Harbor it would have left the United States out of the war for at least 6 months to a year more possibly allowing Germany the time it needed to force Britain to its knees. Hilter made the mistake of thinking that if America entered the war they would go after Japan first. Even if Germany had the time and resources to try to invade Britain they would have a hell of time doing it, because along the British coast their military created pipes slightly off the coast of the shore that contained oil with could be pumped out and set on fire in the event of an invasion.

 

[Ollie Garchy]

yea, just imagine what might have happened if he didnt go to war with Russia

This is a mirage. I would recommend a book by Lew Besymenski. He tries hard to undermine the argument that the Soviet Union sought war with Germany. He, however, finds ample documentation to demonstrate that Stalin planned for war by 1942...and the preparations were well underway.

I have always wondered why Stalin liquidated military officers prior to 1939. His text answers why. Stalin thought that he could exert total control over the military, kill enough "potentially unpatriotic" people, and create a totally socialist military prior to 1942. But there is another aspect. Many Soviet officers worked closely together with the Germans according to the Rapallo agreements. (1922)

Technically, if we agree that the Soviets developed a military machine of frightening proportions, (and this is hardly dismissed by normal Cold War argumentation), then Hitler acted in a preventive manner.

We, however, know that Hitler disregarded the work of Gehlen and the other intelligence specialists that put the Soviet military figures far higher than those officially accepted by the German military. Hitler openly (as far as the available documentation tells us) thought that the Soviets were poorly equipped and poorly led. Nobody could have been this stupid.

I wonder about that last point. The German documentation clearly shows that they helped build the Soviet military during the 1920s, they helped design new models of tanks, etc., and worked towards an overall better military machine. Hitler, as leader, would have had access to this type of information. Overall, I find the nature of the discussion quite poor.

But this comment stands for most of WWII. I think that far too much "crap" is presented and passed off for reality.

(I only have the German version: Lew Besymenski, Stalin und Hitler: Das Pokerspiel der Diktatoren, 2002).

 

[MontyB]

This is a mirage. I would recommend a book by Lew Besymenski. He tries hard to undermine the argument that the Soviet Union sought war with Germany. He, however, finds ample documentation to demonstrate that Stalin planned for war by 1942...and the preparations were well underway.

Interestingly enough I actually believe the Germans would have been far better off letting the Russians attack them in 1942-43, during the late 30-early 1940 Russia attacked Poland and Finland and merrily got its butt handed to it essentially Soviet offensive doctrine was sadly lacking and there is no reason to assume 1 year would have made much difference.

Certainly they would have had better equipment in 1942-43 but so would Germany on top of this they would have been fighting a full strength German army and air force and had the Afrika Korp had time and material to do its job in North Africa it is quite conceivable that Russia would have faced a two front war.

 

[perseus]

Personally, I think it is unlikely that the Soviets would have attacked Germany in 1942-43. By 1941 Germany was the most experienced and seasoned army in the world overcoming France, a major land power in around 6 weeks, and sending the British into retreat back across the channel.

The Soviets in contrast couldn't even bully little Finland into total submission, so why would Stalin risk this? All indications is that he was trying to avoid war in 1941 by refusing to mobilise his divisions for fear of appearing to intimidate Germany. As it happened this may have worked to his advantage.

If the Soviets did wish to attack, why not do so when the German army were deployed against the west in June 1940, or against the Balkans in Spring 1941?

 

[Doppleganger]

Personally, I think it is unlikely that the Soviets would have attacked Germany in 1942-43. By 1941 Germany was the most experienced and seasoned army in the world overcoming France, a major land power in around 6 weeks, and sending the British into retreat back across the channel.

The Soviets in contrast couldn't even bully little Finland into total submission, so why would Stalin risk this? All indications is that he was trying to avoid war in 1941 by refusing to mobilise his divisions for fear of appearing to intimidate Germany. As it happened this may have worked to his advantage.

If the Soviets did wish to attack, why not do so when the German army were deployed against the west in June 1940, or against the Balkans in Spring 1941?

I think for 2 reasons:

1. Stalin was fairly secure in the [SIZE=-1]Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1940, less secure in 1941 but nonetheless did not feel that Hitler would break it without a formal declaration.[/SIZE]
2. [SIZE=-1]The Red Army was in the middle of a vast reorganization in 1940/41. Stalin was well aware that it was not ready for conflict with the Wehrmacht. Moreover, the manner in which France was humbled made Stalin even more cautious.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Suffice to say I believe no Soviet attack would have happened before 1942 at the earliest. If you had to pin me down I'd say 1943. I say this because:
[/SIZE]

1. [SIZE=-1]The Soviets were aware of German internal planning that had suggested to Hitler that German superiority in some technology and in tactical superiority would largely disappear by 1943.[/SIZE]
2. [SIZE=-1]The Soviets knew they were ahead of Germany in AFV design. Without war to introduce the Germans to the T-34 in 1941 this situation probably would have continued.
   [/SIZE]
3. [SIZE=-1]By 1943, the German Army would probably have been out of large-scale combat for nearly 3 years, thus losing the momentum built up in 1939/40. This is a very important point.[/SIZE]

I am willing to almost bet my house on Stalin attacking Germany in 1943.

 

[Ollie Garchy]

We are in any case putting the cart in front of the horse. England and France wanted war in 1939. They turned a German attack on Poland into a world war. Germany would have turned Poland into a colony...just like England and France turned half of the world into colonies. Why the English point of view?

If we accept Poland as a watershed, events did prove that London was right. According to Richard Overy, Germany was in the middle of a restructuring program. England chose the proper moment to initiate a war. A whole series of questions follow from this analysis, but the central issue remains the issue of war with Germany. Germany lost. They were not "ready". Ok...but years later a real scientist must accept Engish responsibility.

Russia won. They took control of the regions wanted by the Nazis. Did they act in a humanistic manner. I suggest that people visit Budapest. The Hungarians devote an entire building to German and Soviet atrocities. One room counts the German stuff...the rest...floor after floor...talks about the Soviets. Sorry folks. In trying to fight Nazi-Germany, the Brits backed the worst horse. I stand (and historical stats back my case) by my opinion. Stalin was exponentially worse than Hitler. He was Satan. Hitler was created.

 

[ill be damed if i know]

But the idea that german aggression was the manin reason for the outbreak of war in europe is still the mainstream school of thought . I guess tho the phrase " Victors write history " also comes to mind.

 

[Del Boy]

I haven't followecd this thread from the start, I will take a look. But I want to get in at this point to say that I can't do with this re-writing of history. The only bit I can tick here is that we would have set the channel alight to stop the bastards. My uncle Fred , he of The Hood and The Thresher, was on that watch. But the little mad dwarf missed the window of opportunity anyway, out thought by Mr Winston Churchill.

The truth of these issues is no mystery - read Churchill's memoirs and notes and sayings. There you have it, on the spot, from the lion's mouth. Lookee here - the man half British, half American - just like the spirit and effort that brought down the evil little stinker. Tick here for Rommel and one or two others.

Hitler or Stalin as an ally - give me Uncle Joe everytime. His terrible worst to his own country was over by then, he was not, at that time, aggressively and directly intent on trampling the world, at that particular moment in history. He was much too busy. In fact, looking at the remnants of the Soviet Union now, it could appear that Russia was doing a good job in policing certain elements. Perhaps history will show that Saddam performed the same function in Iraq. Perhaps these populations only respond to a Saddam. He warned us that the ground would burn beneath our feet. Well -?????

 

[Del Boy]

But the idea that german aggression was the manin reason for the outbreak of war in europe is still the mainstream school of thought . I guess tho the phrase " Victors write history " also comes to mind.

The Nazi's wrote their history as they went, and it was unadulterated ****. They are still writing it, and especially talking it. As they say in the tropics - you can't polish a turd.

WW11 - they thought they would walk it - they got stuffed.

 

[perseus]

England and France wanted war in 1939.

Ollie this seems a bizarre claim considering

• France had spent years of investment in building the Maginot Line when they could have spent the money on offensive equipment, hardly the policy of an aggressor.
• In 1939 the UK could hardly muster an army worthy of the name and what they had was mainly on colonial duties. They could barely muster a few hundred thousand men for Europe by 1940.
• At that time the threat of city bombing was terrifying to the politicians. When war started there was an idea put forth to bomb the Black Forest in case of reprisals on British cities, someone replied "Don't you know that's private property"!
• Chamberlain naively sold Czechoslovakia to Germany in return for peace, something he was never forgiven for.
• The only reason Germany didn't want war was because they preferred to acquire land via political threats.
• Even after Germany invaded Poland Britain and France dragged their heels, and gave Germany more than three days before declaring war.

Don't take my word for it, take Hitlers, "our opponents are like little worms" http://www.espritdecorps.ca/new_page_161.htm

Stalin was exponentially worse than Hitler. He was Satan. Hitler was created.

I have little doubt Hitler knew about and indirectly orchestrated the systematic genocide. Near the end of the War he even had little concern for his own race since there was no attempt to evacuate or protect the population against the Russian retribution. He also ordered a burned earth policy on his own soil, Speer blatantly disobeyed this order.

 

[Del Boy]

Ollie this seems a bizarre claim considering

• France had spend years of investment in building the Maginot Line when they could have spent the money on offensive equipment, hardly the policy of an aggressor.
• In 1939 the UK could hardly muster an army worthy of the name and what they had was mainly on colonial duties. They could barely muster a few hundred thousand men for Europe by 1940.
• At that time the threat of city bombing was terrifying to the politicians. When war started there was an idea put forth to bomb the Black Forest in case of reprisals on British cities, someone replied "Don't you know that's private property"!
• Chamberlain naively sold Czechoslovakia to Germany in return for peace, something he was never forgiven for.
• The only reason Germany didn't want war was because they preferred to acquire land via political threats.
• Even after Germany invaded Poland Britain and France dragged their heels, and gave Germany more than three days before declaring war.

Don't take my word for it, take Hitlers, "our opponents are like little worms" http://www.espritdecorps.ca/new_page_161.htm



Quite so. In 1965 the Poles told me that, yes England supported them, but no help came in time. We were most unready and this was Churchill's theme. We have to face it, without Churchill we were done. As for this re-writing of history, the Poles also set out for me the Nazi plans for their ocuupation of Britain and its Germanification.


COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.

 

[Doppleganger]

Ollie this seems a bizarre claim considering

• France had spend years of investment in building the Maginot Line when they could have spent the money on offensive equipment, hardly the policy of an aggressor.
• In 1939 the UK could hardly muster an army worthy of the name and what they had was mainly on colonial duties. They could barely muster a few hundred thousand men for Europe by 1940.
• At that time the threat of city bombing was terrifying to the politicians. When war started there was an idea put forth to bomb the Black Forest in case of reprisals on British cities, someone replied "Don't you know that's private property"!
• Chamberlain naively sold Czechoslovakia to Germany in return for peace, something he was never forgiven for.
• The only reason Germany didn't want war was because they preferred to acquire land via political threats.
• Even after Germany invaded Poland Britain and France dragged their heels, and gave Germany more than three days before declaring war.

Don't take my word for it, take Hitlers, "our opponents are like little worms" http://www.espritdecorps.ca/new_page_161.htm

I have to agree that there is little evidence for France and Britain wanting direct war with Germany in 1939. As you pointed out, neither were ready for it and (France in particular with memories of the Great War still very fresh) were very defensive in military doctrine and nature. However, I think they were perfectly happy to see Germany and the Soviet Union make war on each other. Also it has to be noted that Britain and France knew that they had no real tangible means of guaranteeing the independence of Poland. They were gambling on the fact that Hitler would be very wary of invoking a 2-front war and back down as a result.

Anyway, it seems Hitler was caught out by his own military timetable. Had he delayed Case White for 24 hours he might have repeated his earlier political successes.

Quite so. In 1965 the Poles told me that, yes England supported them, but no help came in time. We were most unready and this was Churchill's theme. We have to face it, without Churchill we were done. As for this re-writing of history, the Poles also set out for me the Nazi plans for their ocuupation of Britain and its Germanification.


COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.

As far as I'm concerned the Poles were basically sold down the river as it was perfectly clear that neither Britain nor France had the capability of directly aiding Poland in the event of a German invasion. BTW, can you explain what you mean by 'Germanification' of Britain? AFAIK any major plans for Britain by the Nazis would be mainly political/ideological in nature and not racial as they considered Western Europeans to be of basic Aryan stock. Hitler did not have any real designs on Western Europe - his real interest lay eastward.

 

[Del Boy]

I


As far as I'm concerned the Poles were basically sold down the river as it was perfectly clear that neither Britain nor France had the capability of directly aiding Poland in the event of a German invasion. BTW, can you explain what you mean by 'Germanification' of Britain? AFAIK any major plans for Britain by the Nazis would be mainly political/ideological in nature and not racial as they considered Western Europeans to be of basic Aryan stock. Hitler did not have any real designs on Western Europe - his real interest lay eastward.

Re Germanification of Britain, in 1965 the Poles were very keen to emphasise that in the west we were ignorant on this subject, and that Hitler's plans in this direction aimed at removing our position as a seperate entity within Europe.

However, as at that time my ears were no more receptive than those of the rest of Britain, i am in no position to elaborate, regarding both memory and accuracy. Basically his intentions were described as the most extreme of his European campaigns. They were sure that their reports would fall on deaf ears, and they were appealing for help in rooting out many 'upstanding' Nazis who were by 1965 happily esconsed in the non-communist areas of Europe.

My apologies for lack of detail at this time. Remember that by 1965 we were much more worried about the soviet bloc than Germany.

 

[ill be damed if i know]

yep i agree the nazis wrote their history to suit their mad ideology but if we just say for a minute that Nazi germany won the war , surely it would potray the british , americans , russians etc as the evil powers and that nazi germany were the liberators hence why i say the victors write the history.

 

[Del Boy]

True - but in this case the Nazis wrote their own history as they went, and folk involved are still here to tell the tale. Hitler made no secret of his plans. His writings and film archives live. At the end of the War Hitler's heirs were proud to proclaim their part in the terrible project. All protest is unacceptable in this particular case as attempts to re-write history. It is so close and obvious that it is akin to trying to re-write the present.


COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.