German-Army / PzBtl 393
On the other hand, there are countries that still use it as an MBT. Canada and Brazil, for example (afaik). With uncounted modifications it is far from obsolete as long as it doesn't have to go toe to toe with tanks like the Abrams or its own successor.
We built almost 5.000 of these, would be a shame if we wouldn't put them to good use as long as possible.
We built almost 5.000 of these, would be a shame if we wouldn't put them to good use as long as possible.
Gestapo Hunter
New Member
You know Germany, if you start selling military equipment to the world you'll be making billions.
Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
Germany has the capablity to be a world class arms provider. If your pockets are deep enough this, Germany provides many compents to the U.S. Armed forces, like H.K 416s, Abrams tank gun components, even provide certain pieces of hardware for countries in South America, and even the British Armed Forces.
1- price
2- really advanced projects get "extinguished" by big uncle
3- may open up a can of Patten violations to rough states
4- What they do export (whom they are allowed to and (poin 1)) is very much appreciated:santam16:
KV.
Active member
Danish army operates Leo 2A5's aswell, and we still have quite a few Leo 1's stored somewhere too, and the Leo 1 recovery tank is in use aswell.
Canada operates Leo 2's aswell, and they also have used Leo 1's as far as I know.
In my opinion Germany designs, builds, exports large quantities of grade A weapons and weapons systems.
I remember reading a statistic where Germany is the worlds 3rd largest Weapons exporter, with only the US and Russia succeeding them - so saying they should begin exporting weapons and make billions is quite an understatement - they already are and they have made billions.
Canada operates Leo 2's aswell, and they also have used Leo 1's as far as I know.
In my opinion Germany designs, builds, exports large quantities of grade A weapons and weapons systems.
I remember reading a statistic where Germany is the worlds 3rd largest Weapons exporter, with only the US and Russia succeeding them - so saying they should begin exporting weapons and make billions is quite an understatement - they already are and they have made billions.
Korean Seaboy
Active member
The five members of the UN Security Council-US, Russia, Britain, China, and France sells, buys, and develops the most military weapons. Ironic isn't it? Anyway, Germany may be good, but it's not in the top 5
Korean Seaboy
Active member
The Leopard is one helluva tank. Germany should keep producing and upgrading it. Fantastic
KV.
Active member
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,683598,00.html
And I am not sure if China is really that high on the list either - which countries would be buying weapons from them, when Russian arms are up for grabs at a low price (indicated by the fact that Russian arms export is booming at the moment.) - and the fact that China is importing weapons from Russia.
Any experts on the subject ?
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Doesn't look like it, sadly. The last upgrade that was planned for 2008 (I think it was 2008..) already got axed, otherwise the German Leopards would now be equipped with a 140mm main gun and an autoloader..
But it's not going to happen. Because our government says we don't need it (read: we don't want to pay for it). Which is kind of funny because we do need that A400M that's got no other use than shipping heavy gear all around the world although the Grundgesetz, our constitution, clearly states that the Bundeswehr is meant do defend our own soil.
PzBrig15
Active member
Between my latest Visit at the PzBtl 393 in the summer 2010 , the MBT Leopard 2 A6 are now with a specially Camo in the Front of the Chassis . ( Sackleinen-Tarnung )
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pzbrig15/5437010868/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pzbrig15/5437010868/
Jäger
Active member
So if Germany would export more weapons it could be a permanent member of the UN Security Council too? :mrgreen:
I am wondering, can Leo 2s fire on the move like the abrams? I saw this show on the national geograpic channel earlier which was about the abrams, the way they said things made the abrams look completely unique and uncontested. Is this just american patrotism or is there some merrit to it? It's obvious the abrams is a good tank, but is it vastly superior to everything else?
Another thing, is there a comparison somewhere between a modern abrams A2 and a modern leopard A6/7?
Another thing, is there a comparison somewhere between a modern abrams A2 and a modern leopard A6/7?
Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
I do believe there might be a thread or two already on the milforum about the best tanks in the world.
There are a handful no doubt of the world's most sophisticated fighting machines. The German Lepord the British Challenger the Israli Merkava and the South Korean and Brazilian MBT models just to name a few.
Try searching the milforum's for key phrases like best tank, or a specific tank designation.
The examples I listed above are all confirmed cases were the tanks have some sort of firing control computer or range finding component, which owes partially to the M1 A2s success. Also the crew training methods of that country also pay a huge amount towards how successful a MBT will be. As well as sustainabily.
Another reason the M1 A1/A2 is so good in the field is because the U.S. has the massive amounts of logistical resources and well trained man power to back it up.
Same with any modern battle tanks, diseal or turbine, computer or auto loaded, any tank takes allota oil, parts, and men and women to make run effectivly, let alone repair and retrieve damaged vehicles and put them back in the field. Another U.S. strong point, they refurbish and redeploy damaged Abrams and they can acuatlly ship via rail either to the manufacturer or another contracting company that specializes in refurbishing and plasma cutting, the rest in pretty much classified, as is many of today's most advanced tanks due to knowbody really knows what exactly goes into the armor on todays MBTs.
Also many of today's best tanks use German guns, the Germans make really good tank gun platforms and many countries, including the U.K. and the U.S. to name two major customers have used/ or are currently using German made guns.
The U.S. Abrams uses a smooth bore 120mm that is hand loaded, even when against an autoloading enemy the Abrams has proven effective due to it's ability to fire accuratly and due majorly to crew training.
Also onboard computers due help, esecially with navigation at night or in low visibility. Also using a hand loaded gun does cut down on maintence and the worse case scenario of having a jammed main weapon. It can happen in a tank as well, hand loading almost eliminates this problem, unless you are intoxicated, hence why this configuration is on some of today's and yesterday's most successful tanks.
Now, another great resource here would be to ask some the armor crewmen on the Milforum, they could probly give you a much much better insight on how modern armor is used and works on the modern battlefield.
And their knowledge and insight is just to good to pass up, drop one of the many crewman here your question because now I am even interested in finding an answer.
(If I really jacked some information here, let me know, also I am not claiming I have any experiance in amored combat or posing as If do in any way, I any inaccuracies are in my post please correct me)
Thanks,
Yo
There are a handful no doubt of the world's most sophisticated fighting machines. The German Lepord the British Challenger the Israli Merkava and the South Korean and Brazilian MBT models just to name a few.
Try searching the milforum's for key phrases like best tank, or a specific tank designation.
The examples I listed above are all confirmed cases were the tanks have some sort of firing control computer or range finding component, which owes partially to the M1 A2s success. Also the crew training methods of that country also pay a huge amount towards how successful a MBT will be. As well as sustainabily.
Another reason the M1 A1/A2 is so good in the field is because the U.S. has the massive amounts of logistical resources and well trained man power to back it up.
Same with any modern battle tanks, diseal or turbine, computer or auto loaded, any tank takes allota oil, parts, and men and women to make run effectivly, let alone repair and retrieve damaged vehicles and put them back in the field. Another U.S. strong point, they refurbish and redeploy damaged Abrams and they can acuatlly ship via rail either to the manufacturer or another contracting company that specializes in refurbishing and plasma cutting, the rest in pretty much classified, as is many of today's most advanced tanks due to knowbody really knows what exactly goes into the armor on todays MBTs.
Also many of today's best tanks use German guns, the Germans make really good tank gun platforms and many countries, including the U.K. and the U.S. to name two major customers have used/ or are currently using German made guns.
The U.S. Abrams uses a smooth bore 120mm that is hand loaded, even when against an autoloading enemy the Abrams has proven effective due to it's ability to fire accuratly and due majorly to crew training.
Also onboard computers due help, esecially with navigation at night or in low visibility. Also using a hand loaded gun does cut down on maintence and the worse case scenario of having a jammed main weapon. It can happen in a tank as well, hand loading almost eliminates this problem, unless you are intoxicated, hence why this configuration is on some of today's and yesterday's most successful tanks.
Now, another great resource here would be to ask some the armor crewmen on the Milforum, they could probly give you a much much better insight on how modern armor is used and works on the modern battlefield.
And their knowledge and insight is just to good to pass up, drop one of the many crewman here your question because now I am even interested in finding an answer.
(If I really jacked some information here, let me know, also I am not claiming I have any experiance in amored combat or posing as If do in any way, I any inaccuracies are in my post please correct me)
Thanks,
Yo
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Some people rate the Leopard 2 as the best-if-money-no-object tank in the world. The thing is; it has never been tested in combat, therefore the Abrams gets the glory, even over the Challenger II which has seen combat but never committed in great numbers as the Abrams.
Nevertheles, all western tanks are very similar, share components, and systems and all they were designed to counter great numbetr of soviet tanks in Eastern Europe, therefore it is rather academic about which one is better; they all are.
About firing in the move; is a given that any modern tank would have it if expected to survive. In today's battle field, you don't stop, you keep moving. Even in WWII latest stages the Pershing had a rudimentary, partially stabilized gun. That famous take played over and over when a Pershing destroyed a Panther which had just brewed up a Sherman, it was because the Pershing never stopped and fired on the move. The Panther was expecting it to stop to fire at it, but the M26 never did.
Nevertheles, all western tanks are very similar, share components, and systems and all they were designed to counter great numbetr of soviet tanks in Eastern Europe, therefore it is rather academic about which one is better; they all are.
About firing in the move; is a given that any modern tank would have it if expected to survive. In today's battle field, you don't stop, you keep moving. Even in WWII latest stages the Pershing had a rudimentary, partially stabilized gun. That famous take played over and over when a Pershing destroyed a Panther which had just brewed up a Sherman, it was because the Pershing never stopped and fired on the move. The Panther was expecting it to stop to fire at it, but the M26 never did.
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PzBrig15
Active member
Not from the PzBtl 393 , but from a other German Army main Battle Tank Unit , the PzBtl 104
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pzbrig15/6083141297/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pzbrig15/6083141297/