I've been watching Geo. W. addressing the veterans in Kansas today, on the war on terrorism. I have to say again that I am right with him. Everytime I listen to him I get to wishing we had such politicians here. Then we would never have got into our current perilous situation. He inherited the poisoned chalice of Sept 11 and he read it just right. Throughout the world the Islamic Caliphate developers and their code of hatred must be defeated emphatically. God Bless America and God Bless the guys on the front lines. America is the world's only hope, just as in the 20th century. Never let the other bastards grind you down. I salute your flag with respect once again.
geo. w. Bush in Kansas
Team Infidel
Forum Spin Doctor
Thanks DB.... I watched it as well. He is on safe turf when he speaks to great veteren crowds like that. Only history will tell and write his legacy... for now, the ship is a difficult one to sail..... only time will tell
phoenix80
Banned
President Bush has done an outstanding job leading the world in this difficult era. He will be remembered as a great and visionary man!
I wish him luck!
10,000 terrorists have died in this thing since Jan 2007. This is great news!
It is around 10,000 dead terrorists until today.
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And one other matter. It does not mean that when we stop fighting, our enemy stops fighting. They have chosen war - only the venue is changeable. Our enemy accepts that they can take Europe without firing a shot. At the moment they have got our puny British governments by the balls. I feel we (England) should take them on here and now, I have no wish to leave my grandchildren a legacy of slavery to a disgusting ideology. America is fighting the battle for the freedom, without due appreciation. We must stay with them.
mmarsh
Active member
I thought it was a terrible speech, full of lies and false statements that underlie his own departure from reality. For example:
"then, as now, people argued that the real problem was America's presence and that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end,"
Pure, 100% Bulls***. Nobody has ever argued that. Quite the contrary in the anti-war camp everybody thinks the violence against civilians will continue after the US departure. What we are saying is that the US presence is escalating the violence, by pouring gasoline onto a already burning house AND that the situation that BUSH caused is unrepairable by US Foreign policy. What the anti-war groups are saying is that its time for the Iraqis to solve this amongst themselves. Its regrettable to abandon them, but necessary at this stage. If Bush feels bad about it then perhaps he shouldn't have decided to stage a semi reenactment of the Crusades.
Another one about Vietnam
"Whatever your position in that debate (the Vietnam War), one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens, whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like 'boat people,' 're-education camps' and 'killing fields,' " the president will say.
First of all, its hilariously hypocritical to be lectured on the History of the Vietnam war by the very same people who did everything in their power not to actually learn those lessons prior to 2003, let alone serve in the war when they were called. But I digress...
Both the "Re-education Camps" and the "The Killing Fields" were in Cambodia, not Vietnam and they were committed by the Khmer Rouge, not the North Vietnamese Government. It was a purge of the old Cambodian regime or *ANY* foreign relations ties. The American withdrawal of Vietnam did not cause the killings. As a matter of fact they were ended when Communist Vietnam invaded Cambodia in 1979.
So Bush gets an "F" in both History and Geography.
As for the 'Boat people' allegory. It's Bush own policies that are causing people to flee Iraq. Those Iraqis with either sought after technical skills or had money have already left. The exodus out of Iraq began 3 years ago.
Everytime he opens his mouth there is another rush for the border.
"then, as now, people argued that the real problem was America's presence and that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end,"
Pure, 100% Bulls***. Nobody has ever argued that. Quite the contrary in the anti-war camp everybody thinks the violence against civilians will continue after the US departure. What we are saying is that the US presence is escalating the violence, by pouring gasoline onto a already burning house AND that the situation that BUSH caused is unrepairable by US Foreign policy. What the anti-war groups are saying is that its time for the Iraqis to solve this amongst themselves. Its regrettable to abandon them, but necessary at this stage. If Bush feels bad about it then perhaps he shouldn't have decided to stage a semi reenactment of the Crusades.
Another one about Vietnam
"Whatever your position in that debate (the Vietnam War), one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens, whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like 'boat people,' 're-education camps' and 'killing fields,' " the president will say.
First of all, its hilariously hypocritical to be lectured on the History of the Vietnam war by the very same people who did everything in their power not to actually learn those lessons prior to 2003, let alone serve in the war when they were called. But I digress...
Both the "Re-education Camps" and the "The Killing Fields" were in Cambodia, not Vietnam and they were committed by the Khmer Rouge, not the North Vietnamese Government. It was a purge of the old Cambodian regime or *ANY* foreign relations ties. The American withdrawal of Vietnam did not cause the killings. As a matter of fact they were ended when Communist Vietnam invaded Cambodia in 1979.
So Bush gets an "F" in both History and Geography.
As for the 'Boat people' allegory. It's Bush own policies that are causing people to flee Iraq. Those Iraqis with either sought after technical skills or had money have already left. The exodus out of Iraq began 3 years ago.
Everytime he opens his mouth there is another rush for the border.
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phoenix80
Banned
Well-Said!
Sorry MM - can't agree with your take on this important one. It must be understood that the west and all it stands for is fighting a defensive war that it cannot afford to lose. Yes - Iraq has to sort the situation, but meanwhile they need the support of USA to enable them; Geo W is right when he says that, in order for them to succeed ,they must not be abandoned. Yes, I know it's a tough one.
Secondly - careful listening to Geo W's speech establishes that he did in fact make your point re Cambodia and the Kmer Rouge perfectly clear, and it was one of history's worst episodes. Like you, I was thankful that the Viet Cong eventually closed that down, to their credit, but I still believe that USA's much derided stand in Viet Nam slowed and held the domino effect sufficiently, and gave the far -east time to evolve politically, at great cost to America, as always. Where would the world be without the USA?
It is so fashionable to deride Geo W. in Europe today, but I will not swallow that character assassination at all, even if I stand as a minority of one.
I will not be around to hear History speak on these matters, but hopefully you will, and I pray that I am right in my fervour for freedom and democracy.
That's all folks.
Secondly - careful listening to Geo W's speech establishes that he did in fact make your point re Cambodia and the Kmer Rouge perfectly clear, and it was one of history's worst episodes. Like you, I was thankful that the Viet Cong eventually closed that down, to their credit, but I still believe that USA's much derided stand in Viet Nam slowed and held the domino effect sufficiently, and gave the far -east time to evolve politically, at great cost to America, as always. Where would the world be without the USA?
It is so fashionable to deride Geo W. in Europe today, but I will not swallow that character assassination at all, even if I stand as a minority of one.
I will not be around to hear History speak on these matters, but hopefully you will, and I pray that I am right in my fervour for freedom and democracy.
That's all folks.
mmarsh
Active member
Del Boy
But it isn't a Defensive war (thats Bush Propaganda at work), its an Offensive one. Its no more defensive than the German invasion of Poland in 1939 (Which Hitler also claimed to be a Defensive war). The fact is we attacked a sovereign nation that posed no threat to us. There isn't a single country anywhere that buys the excuse that Iraq is a 'defensive measure', even in the USA that notion is no longer believed.
As for the Iraqis, the Iraqis have made it very clear that they don't want our help. Thats something both the Sunni and the Shiites agree on. You cannot force yourself (even with the best of intentions) onto a nation where you are not welcomed, that is Imperialism. You British know about the failures of Imperialism better than anyone.
About Cambodia, you missed the point. Bush was trying to link the withdrawal in Iraq to the Withdrawal in Cambodia. He was saying that the US withdrawal in Vietnam caused the massacres of Pol Pot. That's history revisionism. One thing I have noticed is that most people are better educated in Europe than in the USA. I would wager whoever wrote that speech was counting peoples lack of Education between Cambodia and Vietnam in order to create an artificial link between the historical events.
Its true that the Europeans criticize the USA too much. As an American in Europe I'll grant you that. But they are right when it comes to Bush. Bush is an embarrassment to Americans abroad, because he embodies all the negative stereotypes non-Americans have about US Foreign policy.
George W. Bush is a very bad president (the worst since Warren G. Harding, perhaps even the worst ever). Even his own party has rebuked him. He's proven simply to be a liar, to be dishonest, to be corrupt, and incompetent. His record speaks for itself. Its very hard to accuse someone of character assassination, when the person in question has been caught lying, multiple times.
But it isn't a Defensive war (thats Bush Propaganda at work), its an Offensive one. Its no more defensive than the German invasion of Poland in 1939 (Which Hitler also claimed to be a Defensive war). The fact is we attacked a sovereign nation that posed no threat to us. There isn't a single country anywhere that buys the excuse that Iraq is a 'defensive measure', even in the USA that notion is no longer believed.
As for the Iraqis, the Iraqis have made it very clear that they don't want our help. Thats something both the Sunni and the Shiites agree on. You cannot force yourself (even with the best of intentions) onto a nation where you are not welcomed, that is Imperialism. You British know about the failures of Imperialism better than anyone.
About Cambodia, you missed the point. Bush was trying to link the withdrawal in Iraq to the Withdrawal in Cambodia. He was saying that the US withdrawal in Vietnam caused the massacres of Pol Pot. That's history revisionism. One thing I have noticed is that most people are better educated in Europe than in the USA. I would wager whoever wrote that speech was counting peoples lack of Education between Cambodia and Vietnam in order to create an artificial link between the historical events.
Its true that the Europeans criticize the USA too much. As an American in Europe I'll grant you that. But they are right when it comes to Bush. Bush is an embarrassment to Americans abroad, because he embodies all the negative stereotypes non-Americans have about US Foreign policy.
George W. Bush is a very bad president (the worst since Warren G. Harding, perhaps even the worst ever). Even his own party has rebuked him. He's proven simply to be a liar, to be dishonest, to be corrupt, and incompetent. His record speaks for itself. Its very hard to accuse someone of character assassination, when the person in question has been caught lying, multiple times.
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MM , as always you post well. I find myself between a rock and a hard place, because I cannot buy any of your points in this case, but I do not particularly want to dissect and pick holes in your opinions, to which you are entitled. Just let me say that, regardless of popular opinions, Iraq is part of a global defensive war we are engaged in, whether we recognise it or not. We will come to regret our continual denial, believe me.
I do not feel that the facts regarding Sunni and Shiite requirements match your description, if you take into account the big picture rather than pressure from very hostile agendas. A little patience required here.
I do not necessarily see the British Empire as a negative, very far from it.
I did not miss the point re Cambodia and Vietnam, you missed Geo W's
detail. He made the point that if America's removal from the area of influence had not taken place, Pol Pot may well have been negated.
That worse violence took place in America's absence from both countries.
Take a look at your description of your president - is that not character assassination? How much is your opinion and how much real hard fact?
Hands up who wants the job! As for me, I have to stick with the good guys; I look to Africa, I look to Arabia, I look to Europe, and then, as you know, I thank God for America. Our only hope lies there.
I hope this does not sound confrontational- no intention.
I do not feel that the facts regarding Sunni and Shiite requirements match your description, if you take into account the big picture rather than pressure from very hostile agendas. A little patience required here.
I do not necessarily see the British Empire as a negative, very far from it.
I did not miss the point re Cambodia and Vietnam, you missed Geo W's
detail. He made the point that if America's removal from the area of influence had not taken place, Pol Pot may well have been negated.
That worse violence took place in America's absence from both countries.
Take a look at your description of your president - is that not character assassination? How much is your opinion and how much real hard fact?
Hands up who wants the job! As for me, I have to stick with the good guys; I look to Africa, I look to Arabia, I look to Europe, and then, as you know, I thank God for America. Our only hope lies there.
I hope this does not sound confrontational- no intention.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
I have six words to say....
George Walker Bush is the man!
'Nuff Said....
I don't agree with everything that GWB has done (Border Security) but I believe that he has done far better for this nation then has William Jefferson Clinton or if those two idiots won in 200 & 2004. Albert "I invented the internet" Gore & John "Flip Flop" Kerry.
George Walker Bush is the man!
'Nuff Said....
I don't agree with everything that GWB has done (Border Security) but I believe that he has done far better for this nation then has William Jefferson Clinton or if those two idiots won in 200 & 2004. Albert "I invented the internet" Gore & John "Flip Flop" Kerry.
phoenix80
Banned
Dubbya will be seen as a visionary man....
Gator
U of B and B Alumnus
Then perhaps the "West" can pony up with some Comabt Troops and Equipment, then just have say 5 or 10 Thousand US Troops in Theater.