General Petraeus report to the US congress
senojekips
Active member
You can say what you like, and blame who you like, this is going to be another Vietnam.
We went in for all the wrong reasons, and we fought largely against a guerilla force, losing thousands of good men's lives.
Finally we realised that it was never going to end until we killed every last man woman and child who opposed us, tying us up for many more years, so we were forced to eat a big serving of humble pie and sue for peace at the Paris Peace talks then we slunk out the back door with our tail between our legs.
Yep, there are any amount of apologists who will say that we won, or nearly won, but you only have to listen to what the world calls this type of war to come to the realisation that we lost. Did you ever hear the Russian excursion into Afganistan called, "Russia's Vietnam"
Well we are presently visiting the coalition forces "new" Vietnam. The military are not going to be given the resources to finish it as it would embarrass the politicians who started it. So to save face for them the military will be left in Iraq, unwanted and unloved, to get on with it until the politicians can find an excuse to leave, General Petraeus' (Read "White House") report is one of the first steps in finding that excuse.
I still haven't got over the embarrassment of the way that the Military was left to clean up the politicians mess in Vietnam. I'm sure I'm not going to like this extraction any better.
We went in for all the wrong reasons, and we fought largely against a guerilla force, losing thousands of good men's lives.
Finally we realised that it was never going to end until we killed every last man woman and child who opposed us, tying us up for many more years, so we were forced to eat a big serving of humble pie and sue for peace at the Paris Peace talks then we slunk out the back door with our tail between our legs.
Yep, there are any amount of apologists who will say that we won, or nearly won, but you only have to listen to what the world calls this type of war to come to the realisation that we lost. Did you ever hear the Russian excursion into Afganistan called, "Russia's Vietnam"
Well we are presently visiting the coalition forces "new" Vietnam. The military are not going to be given the resources to finish it as it would embarrass the politicians who started it. So to save face for them the military will be left in Iraq, unwanted and unloved, to get on with it until the politicians can find an excuse to leave, General Petraeus' (Read "White House") report is one of the first steps in finding that excuse.
I still haven't got over the embarrassment of the way that the Military was left to clean up the politicians mess in Vietnam. I'm sure I'm not going to like this extraction any better.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I think (and this is just my opinion) there is one big difference between this scenario and Vietnam and that was when Vietnam ended it was over when this one ends they will follow you home.
senojekips
Active member
Yep! They're already here, and there is certainly the chance that our highly embarrassing withdrawal would make the home grown terrorists a lot more cheeky.
Gator
U of B and B Alumnus
That is the problem, they are already here.... and they are growing in number because we are there.
Each time the United States Military shoots up a bunch of civilians they get more steam built up for their cause, the longer we stay the more time they will have to do something here in response.
If the US does leave the advantage we hold is the people over there do not have an Air Force or a Navy, so it would not be likely that they attack us here en masse here.
The Military can round them up here, protect the Boarders here, and the Iraqis can go back to killing each other.
Once their numbers are a lot less we can go back over and take Iraq for ourselves as the United States Taxpayer has paid a lot of money for that nation and US Military blood has been spilled.
senojekips
Active member
Gator, I couldn't have said it better myself.
What I do object to is that the military are presently being sacrificed for political ends, and they will also bear the brunt of the blame when the poo finally hits the fan and we are forced to withdraw.
All of those lives,... just wasted, it's criminal.
I said right at the outset that it would have been far better to have adopted the Israeli strategy. Quietly watch Saddam until you know his movements, and when the time is right, give him a Hellfire enema. The same would apply to any successors who didn't get the message.
Hell, the Israelis do it regularly. At first there were cries of assasination, now no one even comments.
Other than the lives saved, think about the cost savings.
What I do object to is that the military are presently being sacrificed for political ends, and they will also bear the brunt of the blame when the poo finally hits the fan and we are forced to withdraw.
All of those lives,... just wasted, it's criminal.
I said right at the outset that it would have been far better to have adopted the Israeli strategy. Quietly watch Saddam until you know his movements, and when the time is right, give him a Hellfire enema. The same would apply to any successors who didn't get the message.
Hell, the Israelis do it regularly. At first there were cries of assasination, now no one even comments.
Other than the lives saved, think about the cost savings.
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
With all due respect our presence in the Middle East is not the fount of terrorism, domestic or international. Fundamentalist Islamic forces do not give a good god damn about whether we are in Baghdad, Kabul or Baltimore. The fact that we, non-Muslims, are on this planet drawing breath and have not converted to Islam is their sole grievance. They draw on the Qu'ran and the instructions of Mohammed to convert or kill EVERYONE. Leaving them be will not solve the problem. Neither did having some footprint however big or small cause it. The problem lies squarely on the words of a third rate trader and Arabian self-proclaimed prophet and the strict adherence to those words by people living some 1400+ years later.
There are two and only two solutions to this problem. 1) We all convert. 2) Through whatever means we have at our disposal we fight physically and ideologically the Muslim fundamentalist in all their varied manifestations until NONE remain. When and where that fight takes place is the only debate as I see it. For better or worse American fighting doctrine has always been that we take the fight to the enemy we do not let the enemy come to us. THAT is why we are where we are today. Leaders have always lied and bent the truth to push the punters behind the cause they wish them to support... in my experience only members of the military are exempt from this characterization. For this reason I find the attacks on Gen. Petraeus questioning his veracity to be grounds for an Old Hickory ass whooping.
General Petraeus is carrying on that fight as best he knows how according to the instructions his boss, POTUS, has given him. Criticising the General should be limited to how well he is implementing those orders. Full stop.
There are two and only two solutions to this problem. 1) We all convert. 2) Through whatever means we have at our disposal we fight physically and ideologically the Muslim fundamentalist in all their varied manifestations until NONE remain. When and where that fight takes place is the only debate as I see it. For better or worse American fighting doctrine has always been that we take the fight to the enemy we do not let the enemy come to us. THAT is why we are where we are today. Leaders have always lied and bent the truth to push the punters behind the cause they wish them to support... in my experience only members of the military are exempt from this characterization. For this reason I find the attacks on Gen. Petraeus questioning his veracity to be grounds for an Old Hickory ass whooping.
General Petraeus is carrying on that fight as best he knows how according to the instructions his boss, POTUS, has given him. Criticising the General should be limited to how well he is implementing those orders. Full stop.
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Islamic fundamentalists get a lot of their power because of the existence of the West and Western values. It is correct, the fact that US troops are in Iraq itself is not the only reason. These people will go on and look for reasons to attack the West.
When 9/11 rolled around, there were US troops in Bosnia protecting Muslims, but that didn't do squat. Presence in the Mid East was also minimal.
When Al Qaeda struck those US Embassies in eastern Africa, America had no business with Islamic countries.
In fact, some of the worst terrorist attacks have happened while US forces were NOT engaging Islamic terrorists or militias or what have you.
So I think by saying that this problem will be solved by pulling out of Iraq is a huge fallacy in logic.
The power of these radical Muslims DEPEND on being hostile to the West. You know what infuriates their hate? I'll tell you:
MTV
Western Movies (Especially that f**ked up Indie stuff)
Western clothing (you know that skimpy s**t that anti-war protestors wear to rallies)
I have seen (before 9/11) good interactions with devout Muslims and Christians from the American South because the Muslims were in fact more impressed with their morals and respect and faith in God. I s**t you not. I would know. I lived in Muslim countries for basically ALL of my teenage life.
This is why I say it is ironic that the people who seem to sympathize with the Islamic radicals are exactly the kinds of people that the Islamic radicals hate most. Just right now since they're being so cooperative in the fight against Western civilization they are being quoted and used. I think "useful idiots" is the term.
Back in 1993, that war was about as just and right as any war could get. America was helping the starving from a band of brutal thugs who stole their food and used their hunger to attract international aid that they in turn looted. Yet when one mission, ONE MISSION, went wrong, all those people were handed right back to the thugs. I think we the West as a whole were guilty that day.
That just tells about the lack of strength and character of our societies. We can't even fight for all the things we hold to be right and true.
Let General Petraeus do his job.
When 9/11 rolled around, there were US troops in Bosnia protecting Muslims, but that didn't do squat. Presence in the Mid East was also minimal.
When Al Qaeda struck those US Embassies in eastern Africa, America had no business with Islamic countries.
In fact, some of the worst terrorist attacks have happened while US forces were NOT engaging Islamic terrorists or militias or what have you.
So I think by saying that this problem will be solved by pulling out of Iraq is a huge fallacy in logic.
The power of these radical Muslims DEPEND on being hostile to the West. You know what infuriates their hate? I'll tell you:
MTV
Western Movies (Especially that f**ked up Indie stuff)
Western clothing (you know that skimpy s**t that anti-war protestors wear to rallies)
I have seen (before 9/11) good interactions with devout Muslims and Christians from the American South because the Muslims were in fact more impressed with their morals and respect and faith in God. I s**t you not. I would know. I lived in Muslim countries for basically ALL of my teenage life.
This is why I say it is ironic that the people who seem to sympathize with the Islamic radicals are exactly the kinds of people that the Islamic radicals hate most. Just right now since they're being so cooperative in the fight against Western civilization they are being quoted and used. I think "useful idiots" is the term.
Back in 1993, that war was about as just and right as any war could get. America was helping the starving from a band of brutal thugs who stole their food and used their hunger to attract international aid that they in turn looted. Yet when one mission, ONE MISSION, went wrong, all those people were handed right back to the thugs. I think we the West as a whole were guilty that day.
That just tells about the lack of strength and character of our societies. We can't even fight for all the things we hold to be right and true.
Let General Petraeus do his job.
mmarsh
Active member
We tend to exaggerate the power of al Qaeda and other other such groups. Groups like al Qaeda are only capable of grabbing headlines (usually with high body counts), but they really don't have the power to be anything more than a nuisense. They lack any true threat to the USA. They have no standing army, they have no WMDs, and there are approximately as many Al Qaeda members in the world as there are Mafiosos in the USA (about 20000). Even if you included all the off shoots and sympathizers they are still outnumbered about 100,000,000 to 1.
Secondly converting everybody to Islam is not the primary goal. The primary goal is to overthrow all Arab governments in the Middle East and create a single Islamic Caliphate such as in the 13th Century. The reason they attack the West is because it supports these governments. In essence they are trying to turn back the calender a few centuries.
This so called 'war on terror' is like the 'war on crime' or the 'war on drugs'. Its a war that will never stop, there is always going to be terrorism espicially from the Islamic world. Best we do is control it, but bombing Muslims countries doesn't solve the problem, it increases it.
Secondly converting everybody to Islam is not the primary goal. The primary goal is to overthrow all Arab governments in the Middle East and create a single Islamic Caliphate such as in the 13th Century. The reason they attack the West is because it supports these governments. In essence they are trying to turn back the calender a few centuries.
This so called 'war on terror' is like the 'war on crime' or the 'war on drugs'. Its a war that will never stop, there is always going to be terrorism espicially from the Islamic world. Best we do is control it, but bombing Muslims countries doesn't solve the problem, it increases it.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Mmarsh you are right about many things.
But they will continue to see the West and its culture as a threat even if they are successful in creating that Islamic Caliphate as they wish simply because we exist and simply because there will be people within their Caliphate who will smuggle in Western movies, music etc.
Even in Iran, people actually make alcohol in their homes and listen to Western music in their homes... and if no one's looking, they don't pray as required.
There will no doubt be a crack down on this and the fingers will point to the West. They will demand that all of this stop. See, this too will be like as if the West was a gigantic Colombia and the Western influences seeping in would be like cocaine.
This war on terror isn't exactly like the war on drugs etc. though it has many similarities. Iran is involved is now heavily involved and if left alone, they WILL have WMDs. If you allow these groups, Al Qaeda or not, to just sit there and gather power like it happened back in the 1990s, they will get stronger and they will strike again with better weapons, even more determined than now. What's keeping these guys going is that they feel hopeful that they can defeat the US. The leftist rhetoric does not help. Why do you think their speeches are being aired in Iran? Because they feel their strategy on dividing America and making it beat itself is working and they want to show it to their people. "See, America is nothing, we can beat them."
Going over there does put these anti-West elements on the back foot. Their supporting governments and organizations are also bogged down in Iraq making support of groups over here harder.
Al Qaeda is not the only group out there either. They're just merely the most famous.
Radical Islam has attacked the West for whatever reasons they could find. Israel, backing of Governments, cultural pollution etc etc.
What we have here is a conflict between two civilizations.
But they will continue to see the West and its culture as a threat even if they are successful in creating that Islamic Caliphate as they wish simply because we exist and simply because there will be people within their Caliphate who will smuggle in Western movies, music etc.
Even in Iran, people actually make alcohol in their homes and listen to Western music in their homes... and if no one's looking, they don't pray as required.
There will no doubt be a crack down on this and the fingers will point to the West. They will demand that all of this stop. See, this too will be like as if the West was a gigantic Colombia and the Western influences seeping in would be like cocaine.
This war on terror isn't exactly like the war on drugs etc. though it has many similarities. Iran is involved is now heavily involved and if left alone, they WILL have WMDs. If you allow these groups, Al Qaeda or not, to just sit there and gather power like it happened back in the 1990s, they will get stronger and they will strike again with better weapons, even more determined than now. What's keeping these guys going is that they feel hopeful that they can defeat the US. The leftist rhetoric does not help. Why do you think their speeches are being aired in Iran? Because they feel their strategy on dividing America and making it beat itself is working and they want to show it to their people. "See, America is nothing, we can beat them."
Going over there does put these anti-West elements on the back foot. Their supporting governments and organizations are also bogged down in Iraq making support of groups over here harder.
Al Qaeda is not the only group out there either. They're just merely the most famous.
Radical Islam has attacked the West for whatever reasons they could find. Israel, backing of Governments, cultural pollution etc etc.
What we have here is a conflict between two civilizations.
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Sayed Q'Tub. The father of modern muslim terrorists. A school teacher involved in a program to help education and prosperity in Egypt. Check it out. The liberal mantra on this track doesn't hold water Inferno.
Hell we were defending Muslims in Bosnia. Didn't make a lick of difference because THAT is not the problem. The problem is as I stated previously.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
And also, the last time I checked, Sweden isn't located in the Middle East. Yet they demand that the country adopt Sharia law. Also in the UK as our friend from the UK has stated, their laws have been creeping into British law. All over Europe you are seeing this problem of radical and even mainstream Muslims trying to change laws based on Western values more towards Islamic laws and values. Now this is a problem because there are MANY groups in the West who adhere to Western values because they are living in the West. The Chinese, Indian Hindus, Koreans... they adjust and live with Western laws. But no, the Muslims MUST convert everyone over to their values, regardless of where they are.
Here lies the problem.
The premise of just making a Middle East under the Islamic Caliphate is true, but everything indicates that it's not going to end there and in fact, if this were achieved, their attack against the West will in fact increase, perhaps even backed by nuclear weapons. That is a scenario I do not want to see.
Here lies the problem.
The premise of just making a Middle East under the Islamic Caliphate is true, but everything indicates that it's not going to end there and in fact, if this were achieved, their attack against the West will in fact increase, perhaps even backed by nuclear weapons. That is a scenario I do not want to see.
phoenix80
Banned
Bet you read Lawrence Wrights' book called Looming Tower.
phoenix80
Banned
Same here....
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The New York Times and MoveOn
Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 12:27:21 pm PDT
Did the New York Times break the law by giving a huge discount to MoveOn.org to run that anti-Petraeus advertisement? Complaint filed with FEC over ‘Betray Us’ ad.
Rudy Giuliani wants the same discount.
The new mainstream voice of the Democratic Party: Daily Kos: Thank you Hillary for calling Petraeus a liar!
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