General Motors Will File For Bankruptcy

General Motors will be Renamed Government Motors soon enough......

Ford was in the same position and didn't take a penny from the FEDs. Yet they're doing good. Government Handout means Slavery. Soon enough Obama will try to screw Ford over.
 
GM spread themselves to thin and didn't respond adequately to the threat of cheaper well made imports. Relying on a name and brand image with complete arrogance isn't a good policy nad now they are dealing with the fall out
 
5.56X45mm said:
General Motors will be Renamed Government Motors soon enough......

Ford was in the same position and didn't take a penny from the FEDs. Yet they're doing good. Government Handout means Slavery. Soon enough Obama will try to screw Ford over.
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Anybody remember Chrysler back in '79? Iaccoca was in the same seat Gm is now, he borrowed money from the govt. had Japan design the K car and Omni, Introduced the world to this thing called a mini van , and pain off the govt load early.
If Chrysler had him now, they wouldn't be next in line after GM
And if Ford is smart they will start pumping out electric cars before the Govt gets its hooks in there business too.
 
should have never bailed them out... should have let them fail from the beginning... force them to change their business practices. we'll see what happens now.
 
wolfen said:
Anybody remember Chrysler back in '79? Iaccoca was in the same seat Gm is now, he borrowed money from the govt. had Japan design the K car and Omni, Introduced the world to this thing called a mini van , and pain off the govt load early.
If Chrysler had him now, they wouldn't be next in line after GM
And if Ford is smart they will start pumping out electric cars before the Govt gets its hooks in there business too.
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Ford is safe, for quite a while. As for GM? The government can get out just as quickly as they got in. And government holding business up isn't always a bad thing; it was better to live in the Soviet Union in 1989 than it was to live in Russia in 1993, when shock therapy put them in a huge recession. And the companies from Eastern governments that were held on to a little longer, such as the Czech company Skoda, are quickly becoming major players.
Team Infidel said:
should have never bailed them out... should have let them fail from the beginning... force them to change their business practices. we'll see what happens now.
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What, and create a Great Depression in the mean time? The economy would recover from the shock, eventually. But it would be a long time before it did. And if it did you'd be screaming that Obama let them fail, how could he! Failure to bail anyone out cost Herbert Hoover re-election and bailing people out got FDR elected three times. (The fourth was mostly the success in the war.)
 
So in the end..... GM fails anyways after I (the tax payer) spent nearly $400,000 per job that GM represented. If we allowed natural free market capitalism to happen Gm would have failed, rebuilt itself and I wouldn't be left hold the bag.
 
5.56X45mm said:
So in the end..... GM fails anyways after I (the tax payer) spent nearly $400,000 per job that GM represented. If we allowed natural free market capitalism to happen Gm would have failed, rebuilt itself and I wouldn't be left hold the bag.
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Or we're in the second Great Depression, like what happened when we didn't bail everyone out in 1929.
 
The Other Guy said:
Or we're in the second Great Depression, like what happened when we didn't bail everyone out in 1929.
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Heres the definition of Depression and Recession
(reality)
Recession = you los eyour job
Depression = You lose everything else

(govt belief)
Recession = You los eyour job and everything you have
Depression = Politicians lose their jobs
 
the failure of one auto company in a national industry that is a byword for incompetence would not cause a great depression. Everybody knows that the US auto makers are badly run; that they were in trouble for a good ten years prior to this, and that sooner or later one of them was going to fold. most commentators picked Chrysler; so it was GM instead makes little difference. the fact that the stock markets have reacted so mildly to this announcement is evidence of this.
the only reason for shoring up these car makers is a misguided notion that it is important to protect a particular company because of its status. the fact that the auto industry has done so little to innovate itself and its methods in the last twenty years or more is no reason to keep forking money to them. just because you like to wear your General Motors jacket, cap, t-shirt, pants, jocks and socks should not mean that taxpayers should be lumbered with the bill for pulling their rings out of the fire.
if the auto makers and their suppliers and their unions had not been so coddled in the last thirty years and forced to rely on competitive forces instead of tax breaks and hand outs then maybe the American Industry would be more competitive than their Asian and European rivals.
the auto makers seem to be making the same cars for the last twenty years- the only major difference is that the computer and electronics industries have been successful in adapting their technology for use in cars. why innovate when there is a seemingly endless pit of bailout money available from government?
 
While there is truth in what you say the simple fact is that dumping a few hundred thousand plus people on unemployment overnight has a detrimental effect on economies (last figures I read were an estimated 520,000 job losses).

I have no doubt that in the long term things will improve but it would be a short term nightmare.
 
people all over the world are having to make that adjustment- that statement is another example of what is wrong with this situation- no offence intended. because they employ 500 000 people they should be given more handouts? when they have taken billions and proven that they know very well how to p*** it up against the wall but not improved their industry one iota with it? the last lot of taxbreaks was whittled away to employees in increased wages without reforms or productivity improvements!
they whinge because CAFE is going to make them improve their fuel efficiency; that it is an unnecessary impost on business. even if the American industry were to reach that target Toyota has already announced that it expects to meet the new standards within twelve months and will be between half again and twice as efficient by the deadline. what is the American industry's response- that the Japanese government subsidises Toyota- after receiving billions in subsidies themselves.
Australian taxpayers prop up Toyota and Mitsubishi to the tune of $30 billion for the last 10 years- and the moment the economic crisis hits Toyota and Mitsubishi both threaten to pull out of the country unless they get more concessions.
enough is enough! every child born in Australia from Jan 1 THIS year is expected, under treasury estimates, to inherit a $10000 national debt burden when they enter the work force- in the UK it is $22 500. i can't find an American figure but with $100 trillion dollars in debt at the start of the year and all of Obama's spending since it's not going to be a small sum! by caving into the auto industry again we will simply be adding to that burden- especially in America where, as i said previously, the entire industry from the lowest union member to the top CEO have a reputation for incompetence that is unequalled anywhere.
 
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bren122 said:
people all over the world are having to make that adjustment- that statement is another example of what is wrong with this situation- no offence intended. because they employ 500 000 people they should be given more handouts? when they have taken billions and proven that they know very well how to p*** it up against the wall but not improved their industry one iota with it? the last lot of taxbreaks was whittled away to employees in increased wages without reforms or productivity improvements!
they whinge because CAFE is going to make them improve their fuel efficiency; that it is an unnecessary impost on business. even if the American industry were to reach that target Toyota has already announced that it expects to meet the new standards within twelve months and will be between half again and twice as efficient by the deadline. what is the American industry's response- that the Japanese government subsidises Toyota- after receiving billions in subsidies themselves.
Australian taxpayers prop up Toyota and Mitsubishi to the tune of $30 billion for the last 10 years- and the moment the economic crisis hits Toyota and Mitsubishi both threaten to pull out of the country unless they get more concessions.
enough is enough! every child born in Australia from Jan 1 THIS year is expected, under treasury estimates, to inherit a $10000 national debt burden when they enter the work force- in the UK it is $22 500. i can't find an American figure but with $100 trillion dollars in debt at the start of the year and all of Obama's spending since it's not going to be a small sum! by caving into the auto industry again we will simply be adding to that burden- especially in America where, as i said previously, the entire industry from the lowest union member to the top CEO have a reputation for incompetence that is unequalled anywhere.
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If Toyota is so efficient why is Australia propping them up with 10 billion dollars? What effect does the GM bankruptcy have in Australia? GM seems to have major holdings in the auto industry there. Is Holden shutting down in Australia? In short do you have the slightest idea what you are talking about?
 
i can see that i need to be more careful with my words- how about this;
the entire auto industry is incompetent. some are more incompetent than others. i believe that i pointed out that Toyota reported that it expected to reach the new FUEL efficiency targets within twelve months and to be even more FUEL efficient by the time the targets become binding. the American's industry's response was to point out that Toyota was subsidised by the Japanese government- which i clearly mentioned. whatever happened to the American competitive spirit? "anything you can do i can do better?" ring a bell. or do you feel that it is alright to keep propping up an industry with tax payers dollars?

GM owns Holden in Australia. it too is propped up with government handouts and in the light of the current crisis with its parent has- gasp- shock- asked for a guarantee to keep it afloat.

i don't work in the auto industry if that is what you are asking. i work in an industry where if you're not good enough you have to close your doors- too bad if it leaves a few thousand people out of a job.
 
bren122 said:
i can see that i need to be more careful with my words- how about this;
the entire auto industry is incompetent. some are more incompetent than others. i believe that i pointed out that Toyota reported that it expected to reach the new FUEL efficiency targets within twelve months and to be even more FUEL efficient by the time the targets become binding. the American's industry's response was to point out that Toyota was subsidised by the Japanese government- which i clearly mentioned. whatever happened to the American competitive spirit? "anything you can do i can do better?" ring a bell. or do you feel that it is alright to keep propping up an industry with tax payers dollars?

GM owns Holden in Australia. it too is propped up with government handouts and in the light of the current crisis with its parent has- gasp- shock- asked for a guarantee to keep it afloat.

i don't work in the auto industry if that is what you are asking. i work in an industry where if you're not good enough you have to close your doors- too bad if it leaves a few thousand people out of a job.
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Not exactly accurate. GM has not gasp-shock-asked for a guarantee from the Australian government.
http://news.morningstar.com/newsnet...J/200906020028DOWJONESDJONLINE000005_univ.xml

I guessing you don't work in the banking industry either since that was the catalyst for this recession.
 
MontyB said:
While there is truth in what you say the simple fact is that dumping a few hundred thousand plus people on unemployment overnight has a detrimental effect on economies (last figures I read were an estimated 520,000 job losses).
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Not to mention the millions of former employees who would lose all heathcare and pensions.

And the company that makes their windows would die without anyone to sell to.
And the company that makes gas caps for them would, too.
And the company that makes their ignition coils would, too.

It's not just the big guy that goes... a collapse of General motors would send the unemployment rate skyrocketing, which WOULD affect the market negatively.

Bren, Chrysler is in bankruptcy, it has been for quite some time now; where have you been? The reason the markets have reacted mildly is the way the case has been handled by the government, preventing GM from going bust.

I have a big stake in General Motors; I have several friends and family members who have pensions through the company, as well as healthcare, and I know there are millions in the same boat as I am. And that is why GM must not fail; another 1.5 million people can't lose their income.
 
Chukpike said:
Not exactly accurate. GM has not gasp-shock-asked for a guarantee from the Australian government.
http://news.morningstar.com/newsnet...J/200906020028DOWJONESDJONLINE000005_univ.xml
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my information says yes they have- it is being widely reported here that they have asked for assistance if it is required- but that they do not believe it is necessary. you can quibble with it as much as you like but they have asked.
Chukpike said:
I guessing you don't work in the banking industry either since that was the catalyst for this recession.
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sorry- when did i say it started in the auto industry? where did i say that?
the thread is about GM filing for bankruptcy, not what started the global financial crisis.
list everything that is wrong with the autoindustry and the global financial crisis is in there but hardly the main cause.
and the catalyst, i guessing, was the collapse of the real estate market that left the banks holding a lot of property they no longer had people repaying the loans on.
it could be argued that this was caused by the bad loan practices of some of the financial institutions but equally it could be that in not paying a decent minimum wage employers did not give their employees a reasonable chance of repaying their loans as interest rates rose, however slightly. Likewise you could blame the falling housing market on the saturation of that market with new build homes at a rate faster than they could be occupied for too many years.
 
The Other Guy said:
Not to mention the millions of former employees who would lose all heathcare and pensions.

And the company that makes their windows would die without anyone to sell to.
And the company that makes gas caps for them would, too.
And the company that makes their ignition coils would, too.

It's not just the big guy that goes... a collapse of General motors would send the unemployment rate skyrocketing, which WOULD affect the market negatively.

Bren, Chrysler is in bankruptcy, it has been for quite some time now; where have you been? The reason the markets have reacted mildly is the way the case has been handled by the government, preventing GM from going bust.

I have a big stake in General Motors; I have several friends and family members who have pensions through the company, as well as healthcare, and I know there are millions in the same boat as I am. And that is why GM must not fail; another 1.5 million people can't lose their income.
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so you're just going to keep bailing them out until the end of time when you have one in five children living in poverty?
so you're just going to keep bailing them out until the end of time when you have $100 trillion+ dollars in debt?
so you're just going to keep bailing them out until the end of time when you imprison a third of the young males in your largest minority group?
so you're just going to keep bailing them out until the end of time when you can't give your senior citizens affordable healthcare?
at what point do the handouts stop and you make them live by the same rules as everyone else?

as for chrysler being in bankruptcy- sorry- missed that- my bad.

as for the mild reaction of the market- it is being generally reported here that it is more about finally holding GM to account than anything else. i am not in America so I am not sure how it is being regarded over there.
 
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